122nd Advisory Committee on Nuclear Waste (ACNW) Meeting, October 19, 2000
U.S. NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION *** ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON NUCLEAR WASTE *** 122nd ACNW MEETING *** Room T2-B3 Two White Flint North 11545 Rockville Pike Rockville, Maryland Thursday, October 19, 2000 The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 8:30 a.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: B. John Garrick, Chairman George W. Hornberger, Vice Chairman Raymond G. Wymer, ACNW Member Milton N. Levenson, ACNW Member ALSO PRESENT: Amarjit Singh, ACRS/ACNW Staff Howard J. Larson, ACRS/ACNW Staff Lynn Deering, ACNW Staff Richard K. Major, ACNW Staff Martin J. Steindler, ACRS Consultant William J. Hinze, ACRS Consultant Paul G. Shewmon, ACRS Consultant Maury Morgenstein, Geoscience Management Institute, Inc. Don Shettel, Geoscience Management Institute, Inc. Robert W. Staehle, Adjunct Professor, University of Minnesota Aaron Barkatt, Professor, Catholic University April Pulvirenti, Catholic University Geoffrey A. Gorman, Dominion Engineering, Inc. Chuck Marks, Dominion Engineering, Inc. Gustauvo Cragnolino, Center for Nuclear Waste Stephanie Bush-Goddard, Office of Regulatory Analysis, Nuclear Materials Safety and Safeguards, NRC Jim Lieberman, Office of General Counsel, NRC Paul Genoa, Nuclear Energy Institute Michael Webb, Office of Nuclear Materials Safety and Safeguards, NRC Allen Howe, Office of Nuclear Materials Safety and Safeguards, NRC Bret Leslie, Office of Nuclear Materials Safety and Safeguards, NRC Tae Ahn, Office of Nuclear Materials Safety and Safeguards, NRC John T. Larkins, Executive Director, ACRS/ACNW Andrew C. Campbell, ACRS Staff [via speakerphone] . P R O C E E D I N G S [8:33 A.M.] DR. GARRICK: Good morning. The meeting will now come to order. This is the third day of the 122nd meeting of the Advisory Committee on Nuclear Waste. The entire committee meeting will be open to the public. And today we're going to hear an information briefing from NMSS on Staff progress on developing a more risk-informed set of requirements for license and source material. And we're going to continue preparation of our ACNW reports. Richard Major is the designated Federal official for the initial portion of today's meeting, and this meeting is being conducted in accordance with the provisions of the Federal Advisory Committee Act. We have received no written statements or requests to make oral statements from members of the public regarding today's session, and if anyone wishes to do so, please notify a member of the staff, and please use a microphone and speak clearly. Our topic today is Part 40 Low Level Waste Source Material Improvement and Control of Regulated Source Material. George Hornberger, committee member, will lead the discussion and introduce the speaker. DR. HORNBERGER: Thanks, John. This is -- to my recollection, anyway -- the first time the ACNW has heard about this material. I gather that Staff is looking at potential problems related to regulation of the .05 percent source material and risk-informing any regulation and they are considering putting together a variety of options, and they are in the middle of working on this. So we are going to hear from Gary Comfort. MR. COMFORT: Good morning. My name is Gary Comfort. I am now working with the Rule-Making and Guidance Branch of the Division of Industrial and Medical Nuclear Safety. Basically, the staff has suggested that we give this presentation because of past, or recent concerns with disposal of material under .05 percent and some of the potential health impacts if it's not properly disposed of. Also, it's come up with a variety of other problems related to other exemptions for source material that are specific to products and their disposal. The presentation that I'm going to give is information on what the staff has been doing. It will start with the background of why we're doing this. Basically, I'll present the recommendations that the staff provided the commission in a recent commission paper in 1999, and then give the staff, status of the staff's activities to date on those issues. The 10 C.F.R. Part 40 is the guiding regulations for the use of source material. Within 10 C.F.R. Part 40 is the definition of unimportant qualities. "Source Materials" is defined as any uranium or thorium in any type of form or that's in concentrations of greater than .05 percent of uranium and thorium. This was developed back in the '40s originally, with the Atomic Energy Act, primarily for the basis of the strategic value of the material. The United States wanted to protect and control the movement of that material, to make sure this very important resource was made available to the Government on need. It wasn't really until the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 that even the statements regarding licensing for health and safety reasons was even put in there. And since that point, really, there haven't been any significant changes from, in, in Part 40 outside of minor changes in 1961 to Part 40 -- again, none of which were really directed toward the health and safety impacts. Basically, the Atomic Energy Act said that the Commission could define an unimportant quantity of source material that wouldn't require licensing. However, again, we would be required, or the agency still regulated all the source material. The Agency, in Part 40, defined an unimportant quantity of source material as under .05 percent by weight for uranium and thorium in general, not just that in, you know, which was in conjunction with what the .05 ore weight was put in the Atomic Energy Act. We also provided in the unimportant quantity list some specific exemptions, which are found in 40.13(b), which is the statement that ores that are unprocessed can go ahead and be used without, as an unimportant quantity. And then in 40.13(c), there were a number of specific exemptions of higher concentrations of source material that could be used in products -- this like for glass refractories, count-, you know, aircraft counter-weights, other topics like that, that the Agency at the time felt were being used throughout the industry, would not cause at least a problem to the strategic value of the material in question. Unfortunately, in recent years we've come into a number of questions regarding the disposal of the material. We've come into licensees who produce materials for other than the content of the uranium and thorium, but they end up concentrating the uranium and thorium, and you'll get disposal streams that are around or right below the .05 percent, but very large quantities. Recent calculations on those show that there can be situations where those, those materials have been disposed improperly or used improperly, could result in health impacts greater than those found in the limits in Part 20. Also, there was a draft NUREG 1717, which evaluated the exemptions in both byproduct material and source material, again finding that there are certain circumstances, such as the use of thorium welding rods that have a potential to result in doses above Part 20 limits. Finally, the agreement states and the State of Colorado recently put in a petition for rulemaking, which is PRM-40-27, which requested the agency to reconsider the exemption in 40-22, which is for general licenses that exempts general licensees of source material from having to meet the requirements of Parts 19, 20, and 21. "General License" is defined as somebody who uses up to 15 pounds of source material at one time, not exceeding 150 pounds per year. And as I discuss, there's a large number, or there are a number of specific licensees who use this material and generate waste streams in fairly large quantities of under .05 percent that have come into question the disposal or transfer of this material under transfer provision in Part 40, which is 40.51(b)(3), which basically states that a licensee can transfer unimportant, or can transfer material to exempt persons, and an exempt person is defined at 40.13(a) as someone who receives, uses, owns, possesses material under .05 percent. So the licensees have looked at that as a provision that they may be able to transfer it to a disposal site or other, other place under that, which has caused some concern. Where this recent changes come out with -- we started back in result to the COMSECY-98-022, which was a request, or which was a statement to the Commission regarding the transfer from one of these sites, which is METCOA to a RCRA site in Texas. The material was going there for disposal, and there was a question as to the 40.51 provision would allow disposal because the 40.13(a) says it's exempt for people who use, possess the material, but it doesn't talk about disposal of the material. The SRM -- DR. HORNBERGER: Gary, it was going to a RCRA site because it was mixed with? MR. COMFORT: No. Just because they were allowing it to, the site they'd made arrangements to receive the material -- you know, I'm not exactly sure why they were wanting to take it. But the material was then, we got an SRM back in February -- well, the original SRM came back stating that they should go ahead and allow, unless we can show otherwise that there's gonna be significant impacts, health impacts, because this is a controlled site, to allow the disposal. However, the Commission came back and said that they'd provide further guidance on this issue in its entirety. In an SRM in February 2nd, '99, they came back and said we'd like you to go back at this issue and look at revising these problems that have, that have recently presented themselves, to clarify the issue in Part 40. Along with it, you know, as I stated, the State of Colorado petition requested the exemption that's in Part 41 to, in Part 40 to conform to Part 20 for general licenses. The SRM, by the way, did tell the Commission not to worry about looking right now at the area of uranium recovery operations, since that's being covered under a different rule making activity. DR. HORNBERGER: What was the date on the Colorado petition? MR. COMFORT: I'd have to -- DR. HORNBERGER: Is it on here? MR. COMFORT: It's not on that, specifically. DR. HORNBERGER: That's okay. MR. COMFORT: But I can find it out if it's not right here. Unfortunately, I don't have that with me right now. We basically went forward in response to the SRM with a SECY paper, 99-259, making suggestions of how that we felt we should proceed forward with these issues related to Part 40. Basically, we decided that we did need to develop more risk-informed performance based regulations for the use of source material. And as part of that, our concerns because of the lack of requirements on disposal and transfer of the material and unclarified use in some cases under the exemptions of the material, that we would probably want to try to improve the control and distribution of that source material to exempt persons and general licensee. We also wanted to explore the best approach to delineate the responsibilities between NRC and other agencies that may have jurisdiction over this material with regard to the low levels of source material. Source material is found naturally in nature, and so there's, you know, some concern, should it be treated as a naturally occurring radioactive material consistent with other agencies. DR. WYMER: What other agency? MR. COMFORT: EPA is primarily the one that's controlling NORM activities, but also the states have a role in that also. Finally, because of these problems with the potential for transfer of large quantities of material under the 40.51 provision, we basically went forward and said that we ought to do an immediate rule-making on requiring prior Commission approval for the transfer of this licensed material to people who are exempt under 40.13(a). We wanted to make sure that if it was going to happen -- and to date, we're not aware of it occurring, at least not any, at all, actually, without anybody coming to the Agency and requesting, first, permission to do it. But we wanted to get that specifically in the regulation to make sure that there's no question about it again. I've got some, a little bit further detail on that for the, as to what the actual language that's presenting a problem. Now, the Commission came back with an SRM after we provided these recommendations and basically agreed with those recommendations. The SRM was dated March 9th of this year. It, one of the things it did direct us to do is go ahead and establish two working groups, and make sure that we had the agreement states as participants and since they were impacted by this. We have gone ahead and done that, as I'll discuss in the upcoming tasks. The Commission also told us in that SRM to make sure that the issue of the petition that had been submitted by the states, that although we were planning on going through with the rulemaking and answering the petition through that method to make sure that the states agreed that was an appropriate way to do it. So since that point, we've gone through and developed the Part 40 -- we've taken the responsibilities that have been given by the Commission and the SRM, and developed it into three separate tasks, which we're working on right now. The first task that the SRM stated was that the staff was to initiate interaction with the other agencies that may have some, or that may have some jurisdiction or other responsibility regarding either the source material or the ores that are associated with the source material, or the daughter products that may be associated also. We've done that, we've basically created a working, which held their first meeting on September 20th, 21st. And this working group consisted of members from EPA, the agreement states, Army Corps of Engineers, and OSHA, which were all felt to be impacted. And they decided that they wanted to participate. The status, the Commission's only tasking on this, though, is that we were to provide a status plan on how we were going to approach resolving the issues related to this, by March 9th, 2001. This first working group went ahead and did their meeting and came out with a number of issues that we wanted to, felt were necessary to be covered on it. One of the first things was to go back and take a look at, what are the current individual agency responsibilities that we currently have under each Agency's charter or state's charter? Because there's -- a lot of this has some duplicity on it, or potential, depending upon how you read the regulations. Again, that's one of the big issues that this group is hoping to work out, is if there is areas that either have duplicative coverage or there's potentially a lack of coverage that they feel that should be covered. This group is trying to determine those aspects and then trying to present a plan on how to better approach that. There is a situation that, because the Atomic Energy Act gives the NRC exclusive jurisdiction over Part 40 material, there's some question of, because we went ahead and exempted from licensing some of that material, it still doesn't leave it under our regulation, and therefore should the states or EPA be allowed to regulate that material in any shape or form. And along with that, you have the problem that, because the Atomic Energy Act and Part 40 define source materials, or contain greater than .05 percent, that means the ore, or felt to mean the ore in its entirety, so there's some question as to how these agencies might be able to regulate that material. And just to make clarification for that, that's what this group is attempting to do, is to clarify who really should have the jurisdiction. The other thing they're going forward to say, is NRC the appropriate agency to have jurisdiction over this material and the aspects if it's not being used for, for fuel cycle or nuclear matters. And so that's also being looked at by the group. The group on that meeting also went forward and tried to develop a couple of options of how we could go forward if there should be changes or it's decided that changes need to be implemented. And those changes included things such as, should we go back for legislative changes, or would we be able to do it through an executive order or some other method, MOUs? They're looking at, trying to determine the entire gambit of both what needs to be done, what the result will be, and then how to do it. It's expected that this group will probably take a period of time and could impact our current Part 40 regulations, depending upon what the decision and the Agency heads decide to do about the material. The second task that we broke down was to develop the, the new rule-making on the transfers amending Part 41 to require the Commission approval for material less than .05 percent to exempt persons. The criteria that we went ahead and suggested, both in, well in the current rulemaking package that's before the Commission -- and this has been released to the public just last week -- was that we probably would go ahead and allow, or that we would allow the transfer of the material as long as it would be under 100 millirem. If the doses didn't exceed, expect to be exceed under 100 millirem; however, if it was above 25 millirem, we'd notify the Commission any time that we went ahead and approved that transfer. DR. HORNBERGER: The dose to whom? MR. COMFORT: The dose to the public on that. And we issued that paper to the Commission on September 25th, and it can be found on our website now because it has been put out for public. The Commission decided that they'd like to get some public input or other evaluating it. As a matter of fact, we've already gotten some comments on it from the states, and I'll get into that in just a second. Where the big problem with 40.51 comes about is that it currently states that any licensee may transfer source or byproduct material to any person exempt from licensing requirements of the Act and regulations in this Part, or to any person in any agreement state subject to the jurisdiction of that state who's been exempted. In 40.13(a), it states that any person exempt from the regulations in this Part to the extent that the person receives, possesses, uses source material in which the source material is by weight less than 1/20th of 1 percent. Where they're running into the problem was that there was a concern that this gives licensees a large window to go ahead and just transfer this because it's specifically written into the regulations that they may do it. Unfortunately -- well, we, but, however, NRC has taken a past policy of that the material, once licensed, needs to follow the Part 20 disposal requirements. And the rationale for that is because 40.13 doesn't directly address disposal on this issue. We've gotten also requests from other licensees to take large quantities of material for further processing because of other content of the material, and that's felt to fall under this provision. And you run into the question of, however, this material is the same as if it were going to -- basically, if you're saying it's under .05 percent by content, whether it goes to a disposal site or goes to a processor for some other process, it now becomes potentially unlicensed because it's going to an exempt person under this regulation. So you have to look at -- you know, there's a concern that there some type of inequity in the handling of the material because in like one case that I'm aware of, the material was going to be sent, because of its lime content, to a cement manufacturer, and that may, in reality, have a greater chance of exposure to the public than the actually disposing it in a landfill or other, other waste site. So this has caused a lot of problem that we felt -- it's caused enough question over the last four or five years that we've gotten a number of letters from licenses on the applicability, that we did feel that it was worthwhile changing it to the language that requires the transfer be approved before it can be done, and make that specific. As I have stated, we have gotten some comments already, and those were from the agreement states. One of -- they basically come from the state of Illinois and Texas on this issue. The state of Illinois -- and also in this meeting with the jurisdictional group, there was some concern about how this changes NRC's past practices. In the state of Illinois listed a large number of letters of past NRC policy that made it very clear that we, in the past, have not considered that 40.51 would apply to disposal. And it hasn't necessarily, the policy hasn't necessarily been changed on that. The few events that we have done for disposal have, have gone through an approval process that could be considered an alternative to the disposal requirements of Part 20 that we have gone through and approved. But because of the language of the transfers for under 100 millirem now, which is inconsistent with some of NRC's decommissioning policies in Part 20 for 25 millirem, they have a concern of how this is gonna impact the states. The other thing they have a concern of is, because we are requesting an approval and the state does have some licensees that fall under their, that for consistency, it would cause some additional burden to them, rather than outright saying, no, you have to meet the Part 20s. You know, they will have to, for requirements for disposal under Part 20, you now have to go through and perhaps do an additional analysis or handle other work. The other thing that they were, the state of Texas mentioned in their letter is that they suggested some minor language modifications to include agreement states to make it more clear there. And currently, as I said, this paper is before the Commission, so we're waiting for a response as to whether we can go through with the final rulemaking package or not. The third and final task that we were working on is, was directed by the Commission, is to develop a rulemaking plan to improve the control and distribution of source material to exempt persons and general licensees. Also, to include the resolution of PRM-40-27, plus to make the entire rule more risk-informed. So we set up a work group, that the charter of that group is to look at Part 40 in its entirety, try to identify the problems that are with Part 40 in its current form, based upon our past history. This working group is made up primarily of NRC staff, with also a member from the agreement states and a member from the, from the CRCPD. Acronyms. The Commission told us that we needed to have a rulemaking plan for the revision of Part 40, due to the Commission by March. The first working group meeting was just held in the last two days. The Rulemaking Working Group basically went through and discussed, or tried to identify the problems that we've had with Part 40 in recent years and over the past. It's had a long history that we've made attempts to change Part 40, even as recently as 1992. There were a lot of papers describing a lot of the problems even at that point. The rulemaking was made in part also because of the changes in Part 20, in an attempt to make it more consistent with Part 20, or evaluate the current regulation with Part 20. However, due to, because of a lack of some information on who it would impact and a concern of the conditions, politics of the time, of adding additional regulatory burdens that may not, two people wholesale, rather than trying to, to determine whether they're really gonna have a health impact was determined to be -- well, we weren't determined that we had the information available to make that determination at the point, so it was the advance notice of rulemaking that was put out, or proposed rulemaking that was put out was rescinded, and until recently it hasn't come up again. The working group's concerns focused, you know, primarily on the areas of the exempt, or people who were exempt from licensing under 40.13, and also the general licensees under 40.22. In general, the working group felt that the areas covering specific licenses didn't show too particularly many problems outside of a little bit if clarity necessary on the part, or on that transfer provision. The big problems found with both 40.13 and 40.22 was the lack of clarity. And what applied to the general licensees in the way of the other portions of the regulations. Again, like 40.51 states that a licensee may transfer to, and it would be considered that because a general licensee is a licensee, it would apply to them; an exempt person's not a licensee, so that wouldn't. There's a lot of concern that general licensees, because they don't have any further requirements, are not particularly aware of the conditions that they should be operating under Part 40. And further, because we don't have any method to track or evaluate where those licensees are, we have a difficulty in enforcing any type of restrictions that are currently, or that may be placed on them. In the area of exempt licensees, there's a lot of questions regarding the clarity of what's really being exempted. Some of them are very specific in the use that says, you know, you can use it for this type of operation. However, if you start modifying it or doing anything else, it's not clear that it is going to be used on -- in a few cases, it does say that you can't modify it in any shape or form. But in no case, in either the general licensees or the exempt, does it talk about how, you know, what you should do after you've finished using the product, you know, in the way of disposal or any other method. And a lot of these products contain up to .4 percent by weight, or higher than .05 percent by weight, for the specific uses. So that was a big concern, because a lot of this material, particularly, the states were saying, now that landfills are getting exposure monitors on their, you know, for materials coming in are being set off and the states are having a lot of burden going out, trying to determine, is this an exempt material and what the problems presented for it, because they are having some dose rates associated. You know, the expectation is, in most cases, based upon NUREG-1717, that there isn't going to be a concern, but NUREG-1717 did show that for some of the exemptions that there were concerns. In the case of the general licensees, as in the petition from the states, the agreement states, they found, again, by material being transferred from a general licensee to a landfill, they've been able to detect where some of these general licensees are and they'll go back and they'll find that there are some contamination problems that again could result in, you know, under optimum conditions, exposures that would potentially exceed Part 20 dose limits. DR. HORNBERGER: Gary? MR. COMFORT: Yes. DR. HORNBERGER: Could you help me out a little bit by giving me maybe a couple examples of the kind of things that are done by these general licensees and the kind of materials that would be passed on as exempt. MR. COMFORT: Well, under, under the exemption, one of the -- we had members of the public, actually, at this working group meeting, and one of them has another petition in regarding a specific part of Part 40 in the exemptions, which is aircraft counterweights. He's looking, he's done a lot of, he's been involved in that area for quite a while, and he's done a lot of research. He found even in NRC's databases where aircraft counterweights, which are exempt under the, under Part 40.13(c) -- I think it's (5). But they're exempt under that. However, it says it's for the use as a counterweight. What's happening, he says, is as the planes now -- you know, back in 1960 when this was written, that's, the planes were using these. Now those planes that were built in the '60s are being retired, and there's a concern of what's going on, that the counterweights are either stored en masse for use on other, other, other planes. However, with FAA requirements, that's becoming more difficult because everything has to be flight certified. There's also the problems when they're cutting up these planes, they will just take a big chop saw and go right through the wings where the counterweights are and just cut the, cut the things out. And the only things that are permitted are to use it as a counterweight. And it does state that they can refurbish the protective outer coating of it. And this is -- the counterweights are made with depleted uranium, which would fall under this. On those databases, he says they found exposures, particularly in some Air Force military applications, where people have gotten up to 25 rem exposures reported in that database. So that's one of the types of -- it's used as thorium coatings, on optical, or within optical glass. There's, you know, a clarification issue there. If the thorium is coated on the outside of the optical glass, does the exemption apply? There's thorium welding rods, which are exempt under the regulations there. Actually, there's materials, glassware and flatware that you can eat off of that are exempt under that, up to .2 percent. So there's a wide variety of small uses of the material that have the potential for exposure, depending upon where they are. DR. WYMER: But the counterweights are a long way above .05 percent. MR. COMFORT: Oh, yeah, well -- DR. WYMER: They're like a hundred percent. MR. COMFORT: Yeah, that's basically a hundred percent with a protective shielding coating on it. And that's where the concern is, is that when you get to the -- you know, they're perfectly fine sitting in the airplane as designed for use. It's when you start taking them out. Another example we had was that a company who imported a bunch of planes that we basically going to salvage, that he felt that he could get some value of, and he started parting the thing. And again, example of going through and ripping off the parts just using a saw, cutting through the material, destroying the protective coating. When they realize, you know, hey, there is a potential problem, they ended up taking off the counterweights separately and storing them, and now they're just sitting on shelves because there's really not an after-market for them because of other flight requirements. And the question comes, where do you dispose of those? Under, you know, under 40.13, there's no clear regulation, because the person really isn't, isn't required to follow the requirements of Part 40 at all, which would include, therefore, the disposal of it. So you could potentially find these things going off to landfills or other uses, you know. He also gave an example again on the counterweights that in Japan, you know, they were asked to identify, you know, something that set off radiation monitors at a landfill there, and they were able to identify it as a counterweight, that it was going through. So, you know, there is a lot of concern about where does this material go. And that's what this working group -- you know, one of the issues that this working group is going to do -- we may not be able to easily resolve where the material is directly going. But one of the potential fixes that we're looking at is doing some type of requirements consistent, you know, comparable with those in, you know, related to Part 30, of licensing distributors and manufacturers of material and requiring them to report at least where they're sending those materials to. And that's just one of, you know, the areas that, you know, one of the methods that we've looked at during this meeting of trying to change the regulations. We felt that there is a necessity to go through and try to clarify a lot of the language, because, again, the intent when it was written was to protect the strategic value of the material. Now that there are some concerns of potential health impacts from it, at least in case where it could exceed Part 20 limits, that we're looking at doing a wholesale clarification of each of the exemptions and, you know, under general licenses. We've looked at things of doing two-part, or tiered general licenses, where some may not be, based upon a lower quantity limit, or a use limit may not be applicable to Part 20; others may be. So there's a variety. We may even go as far, you know, the group is also considering or putting up the option of, you know, removing either exemptions or general license. But we're still at a relatively early stage where, you know, we're in the midst of developing a rulemaking plan with the options right now, and we plan on presenting that again in the, as stated to the Commission in March. Prior to that, it'll go out to the agreement states for comment probably around the December time period. So there's a lot of work and concern on, on how to handle, in particular, the disposal and reuse issues of this type of material, because of the concern of the potential for health impacts. You know, it again, it has to be countered, however, by the problems of, we're not real clear as to who's using the material and the number of people that are using it, because we don't have any current restrictions or requirements for reporting on that. We are also have to be concerned about the type of material, that it is found naturally in nature in significant quantities all around, and that we don't want to get ourselves into a position that we're regulating everything, because that would be very burdensome to the American public, as well as anything else. So there is a lot of difficulty in how do we go about actually making these revisions to make sure that we are doing our charter of protecting public health and safety, you know, without causing a tremendous burden to everybody involved. DR. GARRICK: You've mentioned some measurements, like 25 r, etc. What is the basis of those? MR. COMFORT: I'm not clear on that report. Basically, from what it was described to me on, is that it was primarily because they were taking the counterweights and cutting them up and causing a lot of loose particulate matter that could be inhaled. And you had a, you know, basically doing the operation for a long period of time on a number of counterweights. So that's the understanding of how that dose was calculated. DR. GARRICK: So with the calculated dose, it's not based on any dosimeters or -- MR. COMFORT: Uh -- I can't say I'm clear on that. I can find out for you on it, but -- DR. GARRICK: No, I was just -- MR. COMFORT: -- database. DR. GARRICK: -- curious. It sounds like a pretty serious problem in some areas and in some applications, such as the counterweight. MR. COMFORT: Yeah, it -- DR. GARRICK: And I was just curious as to what was the basis for knowing, having that data. MR. COMFORT: Yeah, a lot of the data that they're basing the concern on is on calculated exposures. DR. GARRICK: Now, has this problem been brought to our attention principally by the states? How did this, how did we suddenly -- maybe it wasn't so suddenly, but how did we come to decide that this was a problem and -- MR. COMFORT: It primarily came because of our licensees coming in to us and stating, hey, this transfer provision under 40.51 allows us to transfer material under .05 percent to exempt persons. An exempt person is anybody who doesn't have a license under 40.13. And we became concerned because of the, the large quantity of material that some of these licensees were looking at transferring that we did further evaluations with more, more up-to-date dose modeling plans. And they came out with the potential that, under optimum conditions, going to the public, you could cause exposures to the public exceeding Part 20 limits. So that's where it really started. Along with it, at the same time -- as we said, we got the petition form the State of Colorado and the agreement states on the general license -- you know, actually in the last year we just got that along with the process. And then we've also gotten the petition on the counterweights because of the concerns with that. But there's been a long, you know, a long history, as I said, back in 1992, that, that the staff had identified a large number of concerns with Part 40 in their evaluation to try to make it more consistent, or to at least compare it to the new requirements in Part 20, and we were already going forward with the rulemaking at that point, which then rescinded in '94. So it's not a brand-new issue, really. It's just, it's raised its head in the last three or four years much more often. DR. GARRICK: Yeah. MR. COMFORT: It's caused us to really try to make some type of attempt to -- DR. GARRICK: Could you share with us a little bit more than you have as to the approach you're taking for risk-informing. MR. COMFORT: okay, well, basically what we're in the process of doing is collecting data on the uses of the material right now. We've also, you know, NUREG-1717's come out, or is in draft right now, but is getting close to a final draft which examines exemptions, you know, doses, exposures related to exempt materials in both the byproduct arena and source material arena, so we've got the new data on that to go forward and re-look at all the exemptions that we've provided. Before, as I said, when it was created in 1961 it was not really related to a health -- the exemptions weren't evaluated as much on a health impact as more as a commercial use as to what was already being done that they didn't want to impact industries too much. We're going back and saying, well, now with the new data that we have that there is the potential for health impacts, that we have to at least go back and evaluate it. Again, I don't think the disposal requirements were looked at in any type of scenario back when the regulations were written that, that we are seeing concerns, particularly because material has more than likely going into landfills for decades or more. But because now that we've got more sensitive information, or equipment that it's being detective, so there's concerns from the landfill operators and the states along with it who have to respond to those, as to, you know, is there something that we can do about that. But again, you run into the big problem of trying to determine which of the materials coming from a natural or exempt source, versus which should have been covered either by, gone through a general license or a better disposition method. So, you know, they're very difficult on that. And again, another, you know, one of the things that we're trying to do, or one of the methods that we're hoping to potentially use the rule for is to gather even further data by, you know, requiring people who hold general licensees or distribute to general licensees and exempt people, to identify themselves through that regulation that we can get a better sense. And that's one of the options. And that's actually the option that they proposed in the 1992 ANPR, was to do a two-stage rulemaking. One was to go out, basically require people to identify themselves with, with the idea that if -- we knew a certain set of people who were general licensees because for some reason they'd either come and asked us do they need a license or otherwise. And we were, you know, part of the plan on that way, is if we couldn't get them immediately identified, well they'd start, the ones that we did know would go off and identify their competitors to make sure that it was on a clean playing field. DR. WYMER: On the -- it's kind of hard to get a word in. MR. COMFORT: Sure. DR. WYMER: It seems to me you've got a really complex issue, as I'm sure you know. On the one hand, you don't want to put an unnecessary burden on the public; on the other hand, you want to protect the public. MR. COMFORT: Right. DR. WYMER: And it seems to me that you aren't, you have a problem with consistency. You've already faced with this Part 20. You've come up with this, if it's over 25 millirem per year, up to a hundred, then you have to inform the Commission, which is not exactly the same deal that Part 20 is applied in more normal cases, where if it's 100 millirem or 500 millirem, then you've got to periodically, every five years, and make a report of some kind. So you're not consistent there. And I don't have to stretch too far to think of uranium UF-6, depleted uranium in thousands of cylinders around the country, being some kind of source material that's going to have to be disposed of somewhere. And it seems to me, somehow you have to wrap yourself around all of this in a consistent manner, and I don't see that as really your total target here. MR. COMFORT: Well, the UF-6 issue, because that is being specifically licensed and it's doubtful that it would be under .05 percent by weight. DR. WYMER: Well, I'd say that's right. [LAUGHTER] MR. COMFORT: Yeah, so -- I mean, it would be following Part 20 -- DR. WYMER: But neither is pure uranium in an airplane. MR. COMFORT: Oh, I agree, that there's a lot of inconsistencies in Part 40, versus -- within Part 40 itself and the regulations. The problem that you also have though is an inconsistency of there's a lot, it's because it's natural material, how do you -- which is found throughout the world, basically, in very, in many spots, very easily accessible. You know, it's found in zirconium sands, which are very easily accessible, etc. -- that, how do, you know, that we don't, if it's not being processed, we're not licensing it and then basically we exempt that material from our regulations. So you've got the potential that you're giving exactly, or probably greater exposures because a lot of this material is greater than .05 percent in nature that people are just sitting on right now. And you get into a consistently problem -- why are we not protecting them from the material, but we're so concerned about something that's got half the concentration on it. And it's a problem with byproduct material and other materials related to the NRC. They're pretty readily identifiable that they were created by man. When you get into the issue of the source material, where it's naturally occurring material, it's difficult to, to try to find that, that correct level as to where you're going to regulate it at because you are causing, you know, you are moving the, potentially moving where the exposure's going to, but the exposure's still there no matter where you put it and stuff. DR. WYMER: It's pretty clean though. In one case, it's processed as a source material. In the other case, it's processed for something else. MR. COMFORT: Right. DR. WYMER: So that's kind of -- MR. COMFORT: Well, you end up processing it as a source material -- well, see our problem is we regulate the ones that are not, that are being processed for something else too. And they're not -- I mean, a large number of our Part 4 licensees would much, much prefer that there wasn't uranium or thorium related to the material at all, because they don't have anything or want to do anything with that material. And it causes them a tremendous burden because they do have the licensing and disposal requirements that they have to fall under, even though this material, you know, in some cases, they're actually -- the end result is, because of all the other things that they had to add in for the process -- DR. WYMER: So you recognize the problem. Do you plan to deal with it? MR. COMFORT: We're going to attempt to deal with it in a way that we at least have a better idea of where the problem is. And again, as I was stating, the '92 proposal was to do it in two stages to identify who we're really going to impact by making them identify themselves and getting better control of how much of this material is really moving on, and then taking a second step of seeing of then seeing where the real health impacts are. DR. WYMER: I think you need to look for consistency throughout the whole thing, including, including things like UF-6, so that it's all consistent, probably ultimately based on Part 20. MR. COMFORT: Yes. Well, I mean, the UF-6 issues I would have thought, or I would think would be covered under the Part 20 disposal requirements that it's gonna eventually have to be disposed of using Part 20, unless, you know, somebody comes in with a request for getting some type of alternative disposal allowed. What the transfer provision is doing is basically saying if it's under .05 percent, which other -- you know, for consistency, I mean there is an inconsistency there that we do have to look at, that says that if it's under .05 percent, the person didn't have to be licensed and so they don't have any requirements for disposal, whereas the licensee, if they have a waste stream that comes out as under .05 percent, they do have to meet Part 20, unless they transfer it for a beneficial use, is basically where it's coming from. MR. LEVENSON: I've got a different kind of question. The original parts of this, which were "receive, possess, and use" -- and then you attach a radiation exposure limit, whether it's 25 or 100 or whatever the number is -- fairly understandable and straightforward, and how you measure it. The minute you start including disposal in this, what does the measurement of radiation refer to? It's no longer something easily measured by the, as an occupational dose by people handling it or exposed. What does it all mean? How do you, how do you cope with that? Is this over the next thousand years? To anybody? How do you handle that incredible expansion of the scope? MR. COMFORT: I am not familiar with exactly how they're doing the calculations for disposal. Primarily, the transfer provision is taken to still account for that it doesn't allow for the disposal that they would have to come in under Part 20 for an alternative request if they wanted to put into a non-licensed radioactive site, you know, is the policy that we currently, I think, are still implementing, based upon that last Commission paper. It's just that they did an analysis that said, hey, it's not an NRC licensed site. However, based upon the exposures that they calculated -- and I'm not exactly sure how they did calculate those -- I'm sure it was through a public, based upon the knowledge that I do have on those, that I have seen done in that past, under all modes that it could be taken or distributed, it's over a significant period of time. I just don't know though for the, and it is for public exposure that they're looking at -- MR. LEVENSON: My perception is that very few of the disposal sites of the type we're talking about for this, some of which are ordinary landfills -- is there really adequate characterization that you could even do such a thing -- MR. COMFORT: Well, I mean, the -- MR. LEVENSON: -- the total effort required? MR. COMFORT: The cases I'm aware of it is, we have not approved it to just a general landfill. And this last case that was through a RCRA waste site, which you would expect to have some types of controls or institutional controls -- MR. LEVENSON: But nowhere the characterization we talk about for -- MR. COMFORT: That may be correct. I'm not aware, exactly sure again how they did that evaluation. DR. HORNBERGER: Marty? DR. STEINDLER: I guess I continue to be amazed that the Commission is moving, apparently, down a path which is contrary to its own policy of risk-related activities. You keep talking about .05 percent, or whatever, and yet that's just an artificial number and there doesn't seem to be much movement in doing away with that and substituting something related to risk for it. You've also got -- I mean, if you're gonna attack the general problem, which I think you intimated, let me just remind you that every steelmaker injects Cobalt, to some extent, into every heap, beucase that's currently the standard procedure for measuring the life of the brick. Now, is that a risk? No. Is that a signficant risk? Can it become a significant risk? Well, they didn't think that disposal of material into sewerage streams was any, you know, significant risk, until lo and behold somebody downstream is doing something to it. And that was also, you know, I mean, that was also kind of a silly base, not much foresight. But it was based on a mass limit -- I mean, you can call it a curie limit, but it's, curie's just another term for mass in this case. Do I detect the enormous lack of coherence, as I think Ray was pointing out? It's like the right hand doesn't seem to know what the left hand is doing, and the commercial sector looks at this and says, you know, who am I going to talk to? About what? MR. COMFORT: Well, that's part of what we're trying to do, is to make clear who, you know, who should be licensed and what should be. Basically what we're looking at -- and the jurisdictional group is also looking at -- is the .05 percent limit a proper limit? I think you get down -- if my memory is correct -- something on the way to meet the Part 20 limits for disposal, you should be around .003 percent. DR. STEINDLER: But the point I'm making is that the Commission, in its infinite wisdom, used the, I guess they were semi-standard scenarios, to determine what constitutes class A, B, and C rates. That report was the first attempt to analyze the potential licensing process on the basis of standardized risk. Now, is it valid today? Probably. Are the risk levels in, what? WASH-780, or whatever number that is -- NUREG-780 still valid? Yeah, I suppose. They're not too bad. There was a standardized, there were two standardized low-level waste disposal site scenarios and the corresponding risk fixed, and then from that, you determine what's Class A, B, and C in terms of total content, based on risk. I don't hear enough -- it seems to me I don't hear very much discussion about a risk-based approach to this issue. You keep talking about weight percent. Weight percent doesn't mean a whole lot. MR. COMFORT: Again, I feel that we're going down a risk-based approach, but it's very different than handling any other type of material that NRC's doing because it a naturally occurring material. How do you tell whether the atoms actually came -- you know, what's the difference from the atoms that are found in one process that's under, that I mean, that's found in nature -- we're not gonna say even it's being processed, versus that something that is being processed. While the concern is that because it's being processed, it may be getting more of an exposure to people or giving the potential. Also, if it's found in nature, you have the potential that people may not stumble upon it, whereas you're forcing it into a certain place. You can look at it other ways also, saying that when you transfer this material to a landfill or some other place that may be undesirable, perhaps that is the better place for it than in an open area in nature. It is difficult to determine where the balance should be between how much control for risk and health and safety purposes do we have to have versus how much are we also going to go up and clean up, you know, have control over the health and safety of people who currently or material that hasn't been moved and not licensed because he hasn't been moved but people are still being exposed to it. It is difficult to identify all of that and to take those protections so we have to take a risk informed base that we are not going to cost people a ton of money but on the other hand we are doing a proper amount of protection and that is what we are hoping to do in this is to go through a process of identifying where those uses are, what the impacts are from them and how, you know, how we should best handle it. The rulemaking group right now in its approach is that is one of the things that we are looking at, that we are thinking about proposing to the Commission is to continue evaluating data by going through a rulemaking that we can at least identify where these people are plus clean up some of the other concerns that we have, immediate, based on new information through NUREG 1717, through practices that we have heard from states that have concern from the petition that they did. We are on the steps of trying to identify where the material is presenting a problem and trying to fix that problem. Again, the .05 percent number we have talked about a number of times in both the jurisdictional working group and our working group as to how to best -- you know, if that is the proper number and should it be changed, and again we are trying to get information to determine what that all is going to impact and what other concerns we are going to have to deal with because we just don't have a big handle on the number of people and the situations that this could cause in the way of health impacts. MR. LEVENSON: Isn't it true that the .05 percent originally was not a health and safety number. That arose from strategic reasons? You know, I guess one should ask the question if you really did risk informed and were concerned about human health and welfare, shouldn't things like depleted uranium be buried, isn't that less of a risk to the population than making it into bullets? MR. COMFORT: Sure, in a number of ways. DR. GARRICK: Now you are really getting global. You have really expanded the scope. DR. HORNBERGER: That doesn't need an answer. John? DR. GARRICK: Included with SECY-99-259 is an options paper of ways to resolve this problem. Can you share with us what some of the current thinking is as to NRC's preferences? MR. COMFORT: Okay. The options paper that was associated with 259, a lot of it was basically discussing different methods that we could change jurisdictional requirements or adjust on those -- that was one part of the paper, you know, including as I discussed before that the jurisdictional group is looking at. DR. GARRICK: What is the attitude of the NRC getting out of this business? MR. COMFORT: I can't speak for the Commission itself but I have heard a lot of talk that because of the situation of it being naturally occurring material that our charter is really for the strategic -- or the Atomic Energy Act was developed for source material for the strategic -- DR. GARRICK: Right. MR. COMFORT: -- aspect of it, that basically there has been talk of -- there has been some support I have heard of basically saying let's leave the material that is not being used specifically for source material to the fuel cycle out of NRC's jurisdiction and pass it off to EPA and the states. DR. GARRICK: Right. MR. COMFORT: And even in this jurisdictional group there was not a big uproar from those agencies when we stated that because there is some concern of dual regulation. The EPA feels that because of their other requirements on things like the daughter products and radon and radium and stuff that they would be able to adequately protect that material or to at least apply a regulation to it, and that just has to come down to see -- that is what they are trying to do right now is develop again what is currently in their charters on that, and then look at the impacts of going about that route. That is one of the options they will be evaluating to do, and if they decide to go do that, then the next step is what steps do they have to take in order to make that change and again it could be anything from having to go through a legislative change -- they are hoping that whatever we do may be able to go through something more simple like an Executive Order or Memorandum of Understanding, but those are all approaches that are being looked at from a legal basis and from how easy that they would be able to implement what is finally decided. Until that is done, we can't say. DR. GARRICK: It seems that it is kind of important to try to bound this whole regulatory responsibility or at least clearly define it in a fashion that doesn't put you in the position of having to consider storing the whole planet or processing the whole planet. [Laughter.] DR. GARRICK: So I would think that you really want to give some serious thought to limiting the involvement of the NRC in this kind of activity. MR. LEVENSON: This is not a hypothetical potential problem, John. You know, a few years ago the state of Oregon passed a law about what levels of radioactivity could be buried in the state and after they passed the law they discovered for instance that cremated persons, the ashes, could not be buried and there was all kinds of things. Quarries that ground granite, the grindings couldn't be allowed to drop on the ground, so we are in an area where we have to be very careful. DR. GARRICK: Yes. MR. LEVENSON: And as I say, it is not hypothetical. It happened.x MR. COMFORT: Well, we have run into the situation already that people who have rock collections have had to come in and get licenses because they have concentrations greater than .05 percent and the general license requirements of 4022 only apply to institutions, not individuals, so again those are the types of things that we are discovering that we are trying to determine how the best way to fix that is. MR. LEVENSON: You mean the .05 percent concentration doesn't have a total quantity attachment? If I have a one ounce piece of rock that is more than .05 that -- MR. COMFORT: No, there is no total quantity attachment for an exemption -- there is none. MR. LEVENSON: That's one of the things you ought to consider having. MR. COMFORT: That is one of the things that we are looking at also, because we were looking at the potential of moving some of the material that we really have determined shouldn't be an impact at all from the general category to the exempt category. On the other hand, there's some material under the exempt category that we may be looking at putting either under a general license or a more specific license because of the new information on potential health impacts, so that's where I think we are trying to go forward with a risk informed approach on this. DR. GARRICK: Yes. If you approach it correctly or with some degree of thought on a risk informed basis you can address the issue of quantity of material or the size of the source term. MR. COMFORT: Yes. We have also looked at on top of quantity and concentration also the use of the material too. DR. GARRICK: Right. MR. COMFORT: As being a category. DR. WYMER: These things sort to tend to have, to develop a life of their own and I can envision you just proceeding with developing your regulations and even though there is an alternative of passing off the responsibility to some other agency, but the juggernaut gets rolling and it continues to roll and the next thing you know you have got a regulation or change in the regulations. It seems to me that you can't be concerned with what you haven't licensed. That just seems pretty straightforward even though there may be a hazard there. You can't, as John said, process the whole planet. DR. HORNBERGER: That is correct, by the way? MR. COMFORT: What? DR. HORNBERGER: You are not concerned with what you are not licensing. MR. COMFORT: No, we are concerned with some of the areas that we are not licensing but we have to also put a comparison as to what the impact is going to be. DR. WYMER: But you don't have any mechanism for the things that you haven't licensed, do you? MR. COMFORT: Well, that is what we are looking at, one of the ideas or one of the potential approaches that we may take is to start trying to put in some regulatory mechanism in an attempt to identify the uses of that material that we're not licensing, meaning exempt or in actuality general license material. DR. WYMER: So in effect you license for all practical purposes so then you can deal with it. MR. COMFORT: Yes. DR. WYMER: But regardless of that, it seems to me that you can only have one standard. You are either protecting the health and safety of the people or you are not, and the Part 20 is sort of the bottom line. It says here is what you have got to do and you are sort of fooling around with that a little bit with respect to the 100 years. MR. COMFORT: And that is a problem because Part 20, and this is my own opinion on it, may not have potentially looked at the aspect of broad quantities of naturally occurring material. In general, NRC licenses material that was man-made and we want to follow the whole path, but if we don't know the origin of it, it does get difficult to apply Part 20. DR. WYMER: So you are going to change Part 20? MR. COMFORT: I don't think that that is going to be in the plan right now. I think we have to factor that in, however, into the regulations. I mean we are trying to look at it and make it consistent to the extent that we can, realizing Part 20 is there, but there is not going to be a guarantee that it is going to be 100 percent consistent because of the costs or other burdens that may be associated, versus the incremental safety that you would be providing by going entirely to Part 20. DR. WYMER: That is the risk informed aspect. MR. COMFORT: That is the intent. DR. GARRICK: Yes, I think one of the messages that is coming through loud and clear from us is that the process needs to be systematic and it needs to be agency-wide. You need -- the ACRS and the ACNW have worked together in trying to address NMSS issues in the context of some higher order strategy and set of principles that are consistent throughout the agency and it seems that is where you kind of have to start, such that you don't get yourself into a position that because these things tend to get compartmentalized along organizational lines that you lose contact with some overarching structure that clearly guides the risk informed practice at least at some level, at some high level. In the process of doing what you are doing I would hope that you would be looking very hard at what those principles are and how they map into other risk informed practices within the agency. DR. HORNBERGER: Marty? DR. STEINDLER: Yes, I would urge you to pay very close attention and re-read in the transcript what John just said. MR. COMFORT: Okay. DR. STEINDLER: That's the fundamental issue. Let me ask one question. I can go down to the local store and in fact have and buy a gas mantel that I use in gas lights. MR. LARSON: Exempt. DR. STEINDLER: The old ones, older ones -- DR. GARRICK: He actually does that. [Laughter.] DR. STEINDLER: I have. MR. LEVENSON: Next year he is getting running water. [Laughter.] DR. STEINDLER: Oh, no -- and no telephone. DR. GARRICK: I have tried to reach him and I can't get him on the telephone. DR. STEINDLER: As I am sure you know, these things are thorium and they are fundamentally 100 percent thorium by the time you get done with them. They break. The process of disposal I think throughout this country uniformly is to throw the pieces away. They are hotter than a pistol. MR. COMFORT: Yes. DR. STEINDLER: If you really want to know. Do I have to go and get a license? Will I have to go and get a license after you guys get all done with this? [Laughter.] DR. STEINDLER: Because you are going to have a Revolution on your hands if you require that. MR. COMFORT: Oh, I agree completely and those are the types of situations that we are looking at. I mean thorium mantels are one of the areas that are exempt under 4013(c) as an exempt product. DR. STEINDLER: I see. MR. COMFORT: But -- DR. STEINDLER: At least I am not breaking the law. MR. COMFORT: I mean there is again nothing addressing the disposal of those. Is it a health impact to have those things disposed? There are certain circumstances where people use a tremendous amount of them for internal lighting. DR. STEINDLER: Absolutely. MR. COMFORT: That you could get exposures higher than -- I am not going to say above Part 20 because I don't know the exact numbers. DR. STEINDLER: I can tell you they are higher than Part 20. MR. COMFORT: That is one of the concerns. DR. STEINDLER: Right. MR. COMFORT: But on the other hand it is a product that has been used for a long time and you would have a Revolution on your hands if you start pulling out, you know, saying you can't have a lantern anymore of that type. DR. STEINDLER: Well, let me ask one other question and then I will keep quiet. I occasionally get to Colorado and I travel up and down the hills and I pick up the yellow rock -- gee, it looks just like the thing I need for my rock collection. This is Milt's point. I put it in my pocket, take it home. Do I have to get a license? MR. COMFORT: No, that is covered under 4013(b), which says unprocessed ore, however -- [Laughter.] MR. COMFORT: -- if you go -- DR. STEINDLER: Can I do anything with it? MR. COMFORT: However, there is a reading of let's say you chop it into two pieces. You have just processed it and now you technically you could be said to need a license, and that is one of the concerns. MR. LEVENSON: If you polish it, you are in big trouble. MR. COMFORT: And that's again where it is coming down to the idea of what I was mentioning, that rock collections that we have licensed individuals for the rock collections -- DR. STEINDLER: No, I understand. MR. COMFORT: -- because they were considered processed ore. DR. STEINDLER: Well, the final result of your efforts has to pass the chuckle test. So far at least that last example won't. MR. COMFORT: Oh, I agree completely on it and there's a lot of other just language problems that NRC has taken a policy opinion on how it is to be interpreted but it's not very clear that the interpretation couldn't be read differently with a different set of lawyers, et cetera, that make parts of Part 40 very unuseful in its current form anyways. Again, it was written primarily for the strategic purposes of controlling the material for the Government's sake and was never modified for the potential for health impacts and that is what we are trying to go through is to do a systematic look at what should based upon our now more recent experiences, should be regulated or changed in those regulations and to hopefully clarify any of those inconsistencies or potential problem areas, to outright make clear what we mean by what is stated. That doesn't mean that we are going to be able to in its entirety protect the public to the Part 20 limits because of the nature of the material. DR. HORNBERGER: We are looking forward for performance assessment for your cabin, Marty. [Laughter.] DR. GARRICK: And your trips to Colorado. DR. WYMER: I say this very reluctantly but this is an excellent example of the application of the risk informed regulations. DR. GARRICK: It was hard for Steindler too. DR. STEINDLER: Yes, it took me awhile. DR. HORNBERGER: Gary, just one quick follow-up. I think that I understand this. In the material there's some talk about zirconium sands and you mentioned zirconium sands. Is there any case where NRC is currently licensing anything having to do with zirconium sands or is this just a norm question? MR. COMFORT: No, I think that there are agreement states that have licenses under -- in conjunction with our Part 40 limits. DR. HORNBERGER: Is this for processing the zirconium sands? MR. COMFORT: For processing it, but not just for the holding of it or moving of it. DR. WYMER: You must have something similar for rare earths, mustn't you? MR. COMFORT: Well, there is an exemption for rare earths which is an interesting category also. If you are processing for a rare earth to a certain aspect you get an exemption versus if you are pulling something than a rare earth out of it you don't. You know, it is again consistency. DR. HORNBERGER: Is there a problem given that with duplicative regulation with OSHA because I would think that OSHA would care about things like processing zirconium sands. MR. COMFORT: That is one of those things that came up in the jurisdictional group and OSHA, one of the concerns is if we transfer this out to EPA we don't have control over the workers and anybody else but that aspect, so OSHA would be stepping in to protect the workers. DR. HORNBERGER: But they are not there now. MR. COMFORT: They basically take the -- well, first of all, they correct in the claim that they don't have jurisdiction based upon their regulations that say if it is licensed by NRC and are between the agreement, however the material that we have either exempt or under general license, which we really don't follow because the general license material doesn't have to be Part 20 limits, they further follow that same thing to say, well, NRC has the regulation for it so we are not going to follow it. Further, what was interesting is that they use the ICRP-2 standards for regulating radiation there too. DR. HORNBERGER: Who protects the uranium miners? MR. COMFORT: The miners? I am not sure on that one. DR. HORNBERGER: Okay. DR. STEINDLER: The definition of the working level is in Part 20. The radon ALI limits in Table 2 are in Part 20, measured as working levels, working level month. MR. LARSON: I used to be on an ANSI standards committee where the Public Health Service were the ones that presented the results of the working level limits on the Colorado plateau, but I just have three little comments, two observations. One is that this is an interesting meeting because like the West Valley presentation on Tuesday this one sort of defies the logical train of how things are done. DR. HORNBERGER: You said that for the record? MR. LARSON: And I am sure that Dr. Steindler sitting over there thinks back years ago when he tried to interest the Agency into some consistency in regulations between just high level and low level waste. You know, we treat the same isotopes differently depending on whether they are going to be high level or low level, but the third question was it seems like most things are coming to fruition or junction in March and then you are going to make some recommendations to the Commission. What is the intention to go from there? Is it that you are going to go out for public comment or advance notice of rulemaking or what? I guess I missed where we go from here. MR. COMFORT: Okay, well, the approach is that we are going to provide a rulemaking plan which will include a proposal of where to go from here to the Commission and based upon what they approve would go from there. If our proposal is let's go forward with the rulemaking to change the following types of areas, and they come back and say yes, then we will go forward with the notice of proposed rulemaking and whatever other regulatory steps are needed. MR. LARSON: But you publish all the results of all of these working groups and task forces and everything else since they have been formulated in an SRN in a public arena? MS. HANEY: It would be in open meetings. MR. COMFORT: Yes, it would be in open meetings. Actually, what we are doing right now is all in open meetings in the way of the preparatory. We had members of the public at the working group in the last couple days from NEI and other areas and the same with the jurisdictional group. They had members of the public at those groups also who had interests and we allowed them also to do, you know, actually present or speak at certain times and they did have public opinions. MR. LARSON: And there's reports written that would be made available? MR. COMFORT: Yes, there are meeting minutes of each of these meetings. MR. LARSON: They are on ADAMS? MR. COMFORT: Well, when they are put out, yes. MS. SCHNEIDER: And there is a webpage. MR. COMFORT: And there is a webpage that will also direct you to all of this and all the related material. Your question on the mining actually I did remember that because it did come in the jurisdictional and that is not done by OSHA but there is mining safety group that is responsible for it but it is not NRC. DR. GARRICK: Yes. They keep giving the WHPPS awards every year for good mining practices. DR. HORNBERGER: Other questions from other Staff? [No response.] DR. HORNBERGER: Anyone else? [No response.] DR. HORNBERGER: Thanks very much, Gary. MR. COMFORT: Thank you. DR. GARRICK: One thing. I wanted to thank you because you honored the 50 percent rule allowing 50 percent of your time for discussion. That helps a great deal. MR. COMFORT: Okay, thanks. DR. GARRICK: We are doing very well. Why don't we take our break now and then we will come back and start our report work -- fifteen minute break. [Whereupon, at 9:50 a.m., the recorded portion of the meeting was adjourned.]
Page Last Reviewed/Updated Monday, October 02, 2017
Page Last Reviewed/Updated Monday, October 02, 2017