Plant License Renewal (Hatch 1&2) - October 25, 2001
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION Title: Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards Plant License Renewal Subcommittee Edwin I. Hatch License Renewal Application Docket Number: (not applicable) Location: Rockville, Maryland Date: Thursday, October 25, 2001 Work Order No.: NRC-081 Pages 1-160 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC. Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION + + + + + ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS PLANT LICENSE RENEWAL SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING + + + + + EDWIN I. HATCH LICENSE RENEWAL APPLICATION + + + + + THURSDAY OCTOBER 25, 2001 + + + + + ROCKVILLE, MARYLAND + + + + + The Subcommittee Meeting was called to order at the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, Two White Flint North, Room 2B3, 11545 Rockville Pike, at 8:31 a.m., Dr. Mario V. Bonaca, Chairman, presiding. PRESENT: DR. MARIO V. BONACA, Chairman DR. F. PETER FORD, Member DR. THOMAS S. KRESS, Member DR. WILLIAM J. SHACK, Member DR. JOHN BARTON, ACRS Consultant MR. NOEL F. DUDLEY, ACRS Staff Engineer STAFF PRESENT: WILLIAM BURTON, NRR JAMES DAVIS, NRR CHRIS GRIMES, NRR JOHN NAKOSKI, NRR GENE CARPENTER, NRR TANYA EATON, NRR I-N-D-E-X AGENDA ITEM PAGE Opening Remarks by Subcommittee Chairman . . . . . 4 Opening Remarks by Chris Grimes, NRR . . . . . . . 5 Presentation by W. Burton on Safety. . . . . . . . 6 Evaluation Report, Closure of Open Items Presentation by W. Burton on Appeal. . . . . . . 108 Process Discussion by Subcommittee . . . . . . . . . . . 142 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S (8:31 a.m.) CHAIRMAN BONACA: Good morning. The meeting will now come to order. This is a meeting of the ACRS Subcommittee on Plant License Renewal. I am Mario Bonaca, Chairman of the Plant License Renewal Subcommittee. The other ACRS Members and consultant in attendance are Peter Ford, Thomas Kress, William Shack, and John Barton. The purpose of this meeting is for the subcommittee to review the Safety Evaluation Report related to the license renewal of Edwin Hatch Nuclear Plants, Units 1 and 2. The Subcommittee will gather information, analyze relevant issues and facts, and formulate the proposed positions and actions, as appropriate, for deliberation by the full committee. Mr. Noel Dudley is the Cognizant ACRS Staff engineer for this meeting. The rules for participation in today's meeting have been announced as part of the notice of this meeting previously published in the Federal Register on October 10th, 2001. A transcript of this meeting is being kept and will be made available as stated in the Federal Register Notice. It is requested that speakers first identify themselves and speak with sufficient clarity and volume so that they can be readily heard. We have received no written comments or requests for time to make oral statements from members of the public. At our March 28th, 2001 Subcommittee meeting, we reviewed the SER with open items. In a letter to Dr. William Travers, Executive Director for Operations, issued on April 16th, 2001, the ACRS provided conclusions based on its review of the SER with open items. We will now proceed with the meeting, and I call upon Mr. William Burton of the Office of Nuclear Regulatory Regulations to begin. Actually, Mr. Grimes, would you like to have an introductory statement? MR. GRIMES: Yes, Dr. Bonaca. First of all, I would like to thank the ACRS for this opportunity for the staff to present the results of the staff's review and resolution of open items. As you mentioned, Butch Burton, a senior project manager, who is in charge of the license renewal review for Hatch, is going to lead the staff's presentation. I would also like to introduce John Nakoski, who is an acting section chief in the license renewal and standardization branch. I have to leave shortly to attend to another function for the Division of Regulatory Improvement Programs. But we are looking forward to the ACRS reactions and comments on the staff's resolution of the open items and the final safety evaluation report. Mr. Nakoski is going to represent my interests to make sure that we clearly understand what issues or what comments the subcommittee would like for us to address more fully for the full committee on November 8th. Thank you very much. And so with that introduction, I will turn the presentation over to Butch Burton. MR. BURTON: All right. Thank you, Chris. I am going to use the remote mike. Is that going to be all right and can everybody hear okay? Okay. My name is Butch Burton, and I am the lead project manager for the staff's review of the Plant Hatch license renewal application. I have with me some of the staff reviewers who performed the review. Not all of them are here today. So if you have some questions that would really be addressed by them, I am going to have to perhaps defer the question until the full committee meeting. But most of the reviewers should be here today. I also have the representatives of Southern Nuclear here to clarify any items that you may need to ask of them. According to the agenda, this is actually going to be in two parts. The first part as I understand it that you wanted to do was to go over the open items that did not go through the appeal process. So the first part, I was just going to go through those and what the resolution of those open items were. And then following the break, I was going to go through the open items that did go to appeal. And it was my understanding that for each of those that you wanted to make sure that you understood exactly the basis for going to appeal, as well as the final resolution of each of those items, and so I will be going through that also. Okay. First, a little bit of background, and a lot of this is similar to what I provided during the previous meetings back in -- what, the March-April time frame. Southern Nuclear submitted its application in late February of last year. As you know, Plant Hatch is a two unit site, located about 11 miles north of Baxley, Georgia. They were requesting renewal of both of the licenses for both of the units. And for Unit 1, an extension of 20 years so that it would move from 2014 to 2034; and for Unit 2, from 2018 to 2038. The initial SER was issued in early February of this year, and we just recently issued the final SER that I will be talking about earlier this morning on October 5th. Just briefly, I wanted to put up the milestone schedule, and just let you know some of the activities that have gone on since the last ACRS meetings, which occurred April 5th. Since that time, or at that point we had not gotten or completed all the necessary responses for all of the open items. So since that meeting, we have gotten all of the open items, and we have been working to resolve those, and they are all resolved at this point. The staff also issued its final environmental impact statement in late May, and we also did the final optional inspection. As you know, there are two inspections that are normally done, and then an optional final inspection, and we did do that. And we got the associated inspection report, and as I said before, the staff issued its final SER on October 5th, and following that we got the regional administrator's letter basically saying that as a result of the inspections that were done there were no outstanding issues. Now, we identified 18 open items during the staff's review. Of those 18, 12 were resolved without going through the appeal process, and six were resolved as a result of going through the appeal process. The next couple of slides is just a laundry list of the open items that were resolved without appeal, and I am going to be going through each one of these. Now, if you actually look at the next two slides, you will actually count -- rather than 12, you will actually count 13 items. The reason for that is that one of the open items, the very last one, 413-1, had two parts to it. Part A was not appealed and Part B was. So, I split it up along those lines. So you actually see 13 items on this list. Okay. The first open item was Open Item 2.3.3.2-1, and it had to do with the screening of skid-mounted components. The big issue at hand was should skid-mounted components be subject to an AMR. These skid-mounted components were actually associated with the hydrogen recombiners, and the emergency diesel generators. We had actually gone through this issue with Oconee earlier, and the final resolution was that we needed to clearly define the boundaries between these two components, which were considered active, and then the associated skid- mounted components. And what we recognized was that there were some skid-mounted components that actually fit the criteria for being long-lived and passive, and as such they needed to be -- well, they were already brought into scope, but also needed to be subject to an AMR. So after some discussion the final resolution was that there were some additional components that were brought within that were subject to an AMR. As you can see with the recombiners, they were such things as blower casing, piping, reaction chamber, and some other things. And similarly with the diesel, jacket water cooling, lube oil, and scavenging air. And what I wanted to make sure that you all understand is that when we have these scoping issues, when we did decide that something needed to be brought within scope, and/or subject to an AMR, there was a whole cadre of aging management information that had to come with it. And so in each of the scoping and screening open items, if they were resolved such that things had to be brought within scope, or be subject to AMR, all of the associated aging management information was brought with it, and the staff evaluated it. CHAIRMAN BONACA: I have a question on this. One is that this was an open item as you mentioned before on Oconee, and is the guidance -- well, I believe the guidance right now, for example, in the GALL report is pretty clear about what it should be. So with other applications coming through, does it look like this is going to be again contested in some other applications, or is it pretty much of a clear understanding now of what the interpretation is? MR. BURTON: Well, if you look at the latest license renewal guidance, the SRP, and all of that, it is pretty clearly laid out. Once of the issues as I go through this and I guess you will kind of find is that the timing of the Plant Hatch application versus some of the infrastructure work that the staff was doing, we kind of got caught in cross-purposes. But as we reach resolution on some of those things, we were able to see if it was applicable to Hatch and be able to resolve it that way. You will see that with some other items that had to do with some of the work that we had to do with GALL and things like that. So that was part of it. DR. BARTON: I had the same question, because it seems to me that there is going to be generic issues that are going to come up, and another one I think is seismic two over one piping issues. Now, is the staff going to have to go through every application and go through the same arguments? Isn't there some way once a precedence has been set that the word gets out or something, and don't come back in and try to argue it, because it seems to me just a waste of resources to fight the same issues if the staff is going to say, hey, we are never going to accept seismic two over one. And so everybody is going to come in with the same argument, and we are going to have the same response. So, you know, let's get on with it. CHAIRMAN BONACA: And another thing that I wanted to note in particular for seismic two over one is that the SER for Hatch contains a discussion that is very clarifying. I mean, the logic why an existing high energy line break, for example, analysis doesn't provide sufficient understanding of locations that you have to protect for. So I think an important question is how is this information or this guidance being provided to the licensees. Clearly, an update of GALL may be the way, but it is important to provide it in a way that open items on the same issues don't appear again. Unless, of course, it is an issue that is highly contested by the industry, and then in that case we will have to go through to a resolution. MR. BURTON: I will say that in the specific case of seismic two over one with Hatch, I was going to speak not only about the resolution, but how that actually got played out. (Brief Interruption.) CHAIRMAN BONACA: Let me ask another question about this. Are there any other skid-mounted systems in the plant that one should look at? MR. BURTON: Not -- well, I guess -- CHAIRMAN BONACA: Well, I am just saying that I would like to ask that question. MR. BAKER: Of the items related to license renewal, the only ones that came to mine -- MR. DUDLEY: Excuse me, but could you introduce yourself for the record? MR. BAKER: Ray Baker with Southern Nuclear. The hydrogen recombiners skid and the diesel generator skids represent two major examples of skid- mounted components that have an overall active nature associated with them, but which through the discussions that we had with the staff, we resolved how to break that down into the parts that required aging management. There are no others that I am aware of. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Okay. MR. BAKER: And that would reach that level of the interest. MR. BURTON: And for your other question about in general how we deal with these items that come up, I think Mr. Grimes wanted to speak to that. MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Butch. Yes, I would like to first emphasize that we were learning how to resolve some of these issues, and which includes renewal guidance. And parallel with the staff's review of Hatch and Turkey Point, and the practice that we have established in it is that I would intend to continue, as has been illustrated by the demonstration project, is that as we identify areas where there is still controversy or sensitivity. That wherever we can clarify the staff's expectations, we would send proposed positions to NEI, and give the industry an opportunity to react to them on a generic basis, and then augment the improved renewal guidance either in the form of supplements to the standard review plan, expectations regarding the contents of the application, or changes in the style guides that we have established to try and articulate a consistent treatment of these issues. You might recall that the industry identified five -- what they referred to as dialogue issues, and those were areas where the industry felt that there was still an opportunity for improvements in the process. Most notably, environment effects of fatigue is an area where there is ongoing research activity, and ongoing industry initiatives, and ongoing staff review. And in those areas, as we find ways to clarify the expectations and minimize the extent of the struggle over finding the right answer on a plant specific basis, we would intend on capturing those. I do think that the improved renewal guidance is probably achieved 95 to 98 percent of the resolution of controversy over how to do license renewal, aging management, scoping, and other aspects of the process. But there will continue to be areas where we are trying to find the optimum solution. There will continue to be areas where there will be challenges on a plant specific basis, and that just represents the nature of the emerging issues and adaptability that will be a part of the process, I think, on an ongoing basis. MR. BURTON: And I wanted to add to that, is that as we do our work with grappling with the emerging issues, there is always the timing issue where as things come up you have applications that are being reviewed at that time, and applications that have already been reviewed and approved. So there is also the part of what we do as part of our process is as we resolve these things, we have got to see how do we communicate that resolution to the plants who are so far along that they didn't have an opportunity necessarily to incorporate it. And also for those who have already been or had their license renewed, part of the process that we follow is that we have to evaluate, well, how does that impact on them and what needs to be done. And some of that as well we are going to bring out with some of the seismic two over ones. So those are all issues that we as a staff are aware of, and we try to take into account as we resolve these things. MR. GRIMES: Okay. The next open item was 2.3.4.2-1, fire suppression in the radwaste building. Our fire protection engineer, in her review, did a thorough review of the fire hazards analysis, and what some of the commitments were in there. And comparing that to what had been scoped in for license renewal, and we found that some of these fire suppression systems in the radwaste building according to the fire hazards analysis was necessary to protect charcoal filters, and some combustibles, in the dry waste storage area. And also as a result of one of the inspections, we also found that there was some cabling that needed some protection. So as a result of that, we said, well, we think that needs to be brought into scope and be subject to an AMR. And we did some walkdowns during the scoping inspection, I believe it was, and actually identified that portion of the system, and exactly what it was designed to protect. And in the end we did decide -- the applicant did decide to bring that into scope, and make it subject to an AMR. And again all of the associated aging management information came along with it. Now, I just happen to know in this particular case that as you know, what was done was once you identified components in scope and subject to an AMR, you commoditized it. You broke it down into its material environment combination. And I know that in this case the staff that was brought in to scope when it was commoditized, it didn't really result in anything new, in terms of aging effects or aging management programs, and things like that. The next open item was open item 3.0-1. This is a standard open item. What it is, it is sort of a place holder for all of the work that we do with the FSAR supplement. As we review the FSAR supplement information, we will find open items, whatever issues that need to be resolved. This open item is sort of a catch all, that when we are satisfied that all of the issues in the supplement are correctly resolved, then we will close that out. There is also a standard license condition associated with that. Basically, the license condition says that the FSAR supplement, as it has been agreed to, needs to be incorporated into the FSAR at the next available FSAR update, and that is a standing license condition. Another standard license condition states that in the supplement that there are a number of future activities that are committed to, and so we also have another standard license condition that says all of those activities have to be performed before the end of the current term, another standard license condition. And that is two of the three license conditions that we actually have in this review, and I will speak to the third one later. CHAIRMAN BONACA: A number of the closure of open items result in new one-time inspections, or some modifications of existing programs, and in some cases actual changes in site procedures. And in fact I have some questions on that, and I think you, John, had some questions on that. But the question that I have is are these changes going to be reflected in the FSAR supplement, or how are these new commitments captured? I mean, the reason to commitment to the licensee to update the application, and we discussed this before. The application stands as is, and it doesn't have included an amendment to reflect these changes. Are they going to just sit in the SER, or what are they going to go? MR. BURTON: That is a good question, and I guess in order to answer it, I am going to let Southern Nuclear talk a little bit about their commitment tracking process, and then how we as the staff actually as part of our inspection actually took a look at that. MR. BAKER: This is Ray Baker again at Southern Nuclear. One of the activities that we began early was to track the commitments that we were making as a part of the license renewal application review process. And we had several stake points in that process, one of which was the issuance of the final SER to go through that document again, and identify any revised commitments or new commitments that had been made since the previous stake points, and we capture those in a database. And for each of those commitments, we have performed an extensive review process of the existing site procedures, and we have identified the procedures, and the procedure steps, where enhancements will be made, or where we will credit those activities to satisfy those license renewal commitments that we have made. And so we have that process in hand now so that once the license is issued, we will then go through a process of actually converting those draft procedures into the actual implemented site procedures. DR. BARTON: I have one additional question. You have got this in the commitment tracking system, and I know that people sometimes have problems with commitment tracking systems, and lose commitments, and lose track of commitments, et cetera, et cetera. Have you also placed each one of these items in your corrective action system? MR. BAKER: We have a separate database besides the actual site commitments matrix, that we are in the interim managing these commitments until they are established in the site's commitment tracking system. As far as a separate -- our site processes would not lend themselves to having them in a separate corrective actions kind of a database. DR. BARTON: So you have got more than one corrective action system at the site? MR. BAKER: There is a corrective actions process. DR. BARTON: A corrective actions process? MR. BAKER: Yes. DR. BARTON: So it has got many systems or many fingers to this, and how you track actions? MR. BAKER: One of the things that you would do would be to identify conditions that require correction. So that is a piece of it. And another part would be the tracking and trending of those issues. And so you have some procedures that track and trend internally, and then you have other procedures where the tracking and trending would be performed perhaps at a departmental level, rather than at the procedural level. Those are all a part of the corrective actions control for the site. DR. BARTON: Okay. It just seems to me that it more complex, and I have seen other plants where everything goes into one corrective action system. So I only have to worry about tracking one place. MR. BAKER: There is one corrective actions system, yes, but it is made up of many parts, yes, sir. MR. PIERCE: I just wanted to add one other thing. This is Chuck Pierce, and I am with Southern Nuclear as well. To more specifically answer the question that you had asked earlier, Chairman Bonaca, the SER supplement, which is a part of what we send the NRC, was updated to reflect these new commitments, and what we have resolved with these open items. So there was an update made to that document that will go into our FSAR. CHAIRMAN BONACA: And that will list, for example -- well, I don't expect a description, but it will list the programs that you are committed to? MR. PIERCE: Yes, and it includes the final resolution of the commitments made in the open items. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Okay. So there is a place then. MR. PIERCE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Because that is really generic to all this license renewal, and not specifically to Hatch. I mean, I think it is important that somewhere we have what is that we have agreed to support license renewal. And I think that it is up to the location that there has to be a place where we understand what the programs are going to be. Some of them are modifications that can be lost in a SER. So, all right. MR. BURTON: Now, having a better understanding of what they do, now let me talk a little bit about what the staff did in terms of its confirmation of all of that. As they said, what they tried to do was to capture all of the commitments, and all of the commitments are identified in the application in the SER. And as they said, they capture all of those commitments in a commitment matrix. So what we did -- and this was at the very first scoping inspection, we spent a fair amount of time that week understanding their system, and taking examples of commitments as they were incorporated in the matrix at that point, and seeing how they were tracking them down to the procedure level. And in fact we found that they actually did a very good job in terms of tracking those commitments, and they actually had red-line strikeouts of the associated site procedures. And all of that is documented in, I believe, the first scoping inspection report. And actually in that respect, they were actually ahead of some of the previous applicants, in terms of their development of that phase of the process. Now, it was not complete at that point, because obviously now that we have the final SER out, there are more commitments that have been made as a result of resolving the open items. All of that was actually before we had resolved the open items, and so what their process does is that they are going to go back now once everything is resolved, and put to bed, and see what other commitments they have made, and put them in that tracking system, and run them down to the procedural level. But after we took a look at the process, we were pretty comfortable that they were actually doing things right there, and we are actually better than some of the other applicants. MR. NAKOSKI: Butch, this is John Nakoski. If I could just add that post-renewed license, that we do plan to have an inspection procedure that will specifically go and look at confirmation that the commitments made have been implemented and met prior to or about the time the existing license would have expired. MR. BURTON: The next open item is 3.1.1-1 had to do with the BWR water chemistry guidelines. We had developed in the initial license renewal application, they talked about some of the water chemistry guidelines that they were going to use, and they committed to following EPRI 103515. And in response to an RAI, they noted that this document was going to be revised to Rev. 2. So the issue came up, well, we haven't seen that, and we are not sure what is in it. So we are not sure that we are going to be comfortable if you move to that revision. And that was the basis of the open item. After some discussions, we realized that the applicant needs to have flexibility in their water chemistry program. They have hydrogen water chemistry, and hydrogen water chemistry with Noble gas chemical addition. And as a result of some of the operating experience, they need to have the flexibility to make whatever changes that they need to make. But in response to the open item, because our concern was, well, how does Rev. 1 differ from Rev. 2, they also included some of that information. And in fact when you look at Rev. 2, what it does is that it does in fact give someone who implements Rev. 2 a lot more flexibility if they are using hydrogen water chemistry. They are allowed to relax some of the limits for chlorides and sulfates, and things like that. So after -- again, after looking at all of that, and realizing that they really do need to have that flexibility, we said, okay, we are going to close this out and basically not ask them to stick necessarily to Rev. 1. DR. FORD: Can I ask a procedural question? I agree entirely with our decision there, but since you haven't reviewed Rev. 2, how is that -- if you have not reviewed Rev. 2, how can you just go along and agree with the application? MR. BURTON: Okay. And let me be clear. Right now what they are doing is associated with Rev. 1. Rev. 2 at the time -- and I don't know whether the -- or at what stage of completion that is in. I don't know if any of you all know that. But again -- and I guess to some extent that you may call that a judgment call, and part of it very much was, well, we need to understand the delta between the two. And once we understood it, it really was just a relaxation of some of the chlorides and phosphates if you are using hydrogen water chemistry, because it gives you a big benefit to do that. We thought that was a good thing. The other thing that it did was that it also relaxed some of the monitoring frequencies. I think Rev. 1 says that you have to monitor for these things daily. Rev. 2 says, well, you can relax that if you have got satisfactory trends in some of your conductivity, and things like that. Oh, okay. Did you want to add to that? MR. DYLE: This is Robin Dyle from Southern Nuclear, Dr. Ford. One of the things that we did in this process was evaluate for the staff the differences between Revision 2 and Revision 1, and provide that to them. So there was an assessment of Rev. 2. I think it would be better characterized that they didn't do a generic review, and to say that it is applicable to the entire fleet. But they do understand that the differences. The one thing between Rev. 1 and Rev. 2 is that there is no change in the action statements, and the real requirements. There was more guidance on how to monitor things that should be noted and kept up with when you are implementing HWC or Noble Metal. But that has been reviewed as far as what the differences were and that was provided. And the documents are available for generic review also, but it just has not been submitted that way yet. MR. BURTON: The next open item was 3.1.3- 1 having to do with diesel fuel oil testing. The open item was that we had a concern with degradation of the tank bottoms, and that we thought that it would be advisable to do a one-time inspection of the tank bottoms. One Southern Nuclear informed us of was that recently they had actually done some excavation and actually had done just the kind of inspection that we were looking for on one of the four buried diesels. I'm sorry, diesel fuel oil storage tanks. They couldn't bury diesels. Wouldn't that be something. They are pretty large tanks as I am sure that you all know. When they looked at the one, they did not find any significant wall thinning or any kind of degradation. And the thought was that these four tanks, and they are all made of the same material, and they are all in the same environment, and they have all been in the same environment for the same period of time. So the implication is that if we are not seeing any significant degradation in the one, that is probably true for the other three. There was also -- well, actually, when we went on the scoping inspection, as we did our walk around, we noted the diesel fire pumps. They also have fuel oil storage tanks. However, they are above ground, and easily accessible, and the same material, and a more benign environment. So if we were going to see any kind of degradation, we would see it here before we saw it here. So the conditions here really bounded these. DR. BARTON: I have a question. The buried diesel oil fuel storage things, the tanks, the four tanks, steel construction, coated or uncoated? MR. DYLE: The exterior surface is coated. DR. BARTON: The exterior surface is coated, and you inspected one of four tanks? MR. DYLE: Yes. DR. BARTON: And ultrasonic showed that you had no loss of wall on the one tank? MR. DYLE: That's correct. DR. BARTON: Now, what assurance is there that -- well, maybe that tank has no deterioration or no damage to the external coating when it was installed. What assurance do you have that when the other three tanks were put in the ground that there was no damage done to the external coating, and you could have some corrosion going on in those tanks. And that the condition, if you did inspect them, could be different than in the 1-A tank? MR. DYLE: I think that what you are postulating is exactly correct, and is the case for all construction. That is always a possibility for buried components; that if there is some construction related issue that is unique to a specific location, it could damage that exterior coating, but we have not observed that. DR. BARTON: How do you know? Have you looked at the external coating of those other three tanks or other four tanks? MR. DYLE: We have not observed any consequences, any results of that throughout the plant in general. When you backfill, you backfill with clean backfill so that there is not a significant likelihood of there being damage to the exterior coating of those tanks. But your premise is exactly correct, and no, we have not looked at those. But the assurance that we are able to provide ourselves is that by examining that one, a 25 percent sample showed no damage. DR. BARTON: Well, I still think that there could be damage to the other ones that you don't even know exists. I think the staff should require additional inspections before closing the site, or requiring additional inspections somewhere down the road. You expected this one because you went in and had to do some cleaning or something, and if you had to do some cleaning of the other tanks somewhere down the road, maybe the requirement ought to be that you do an ultrasonic inspection of those tanks while you are doing the cleaning. I think it is a crap shoot, you know. You hit one out of four, fine. That's 25 percent, but you don't know what the condition is of the other three tanks. DR. FORD: I have a related question actually. MR. BURTON: Okay. Well, go ahead. DR. FORD: And it is somewhat related to John's. I am pretty uncomfortable about the idea of one time inspections when it is applied to a time dependent degradation mechanism. DR. BARTON: Yeah, 60 years. DR. FORD: And especially corrosion, when if it is uniformly general corrosion, fine. But if it is localized corrosion, and if you have a bad batch of oil, with some chloride in the water or whatever it might be, then it depends on when you do the inspection as to whether you are going to see any results. MR. BURTON: Okay. DR. FORD: And so it is related to that. DR. BARTON: Well, you can only do it from the inside of the tank, and when it comes from the outside of the tank -- DR. FORD: Right. I was going to speak to that. MR. BURTON: Well, let me speak to both. One of the things that Southern Nuclear has is they have put in their procedures how to deal with buried components, and actually I will speak to that in a little while. And that is one of the things that we looked at in our inspection, is how did those commitments get carried through to the procedural level. And the protective coatings program is one of the aging management programs that they take credit for. When you go to the implementing procedures at the site level. What they say is that any time that things are being excavated, there is a specific pointer in there to have their protective coatings people go in and take a look at the exterior of the status of the protective coating. So the aging management program -- the implementing procedures for the aging management programs actually will get them to where they do that. DR. BARTON: Butch, most people have that in their programs. But, you know, one, when you go and do that inspection, it is usually when you have a leak, and then you do the excavation, and then you fix the leak. And then you look at adjacent piping, or tanks, or whatever, and areas of the tank adjacent to the leak, and you go patch that up also. But that is a reactive program, and it is usually after you have a leak and you are chasing a leak. Now, you want diesel fuel oil leaking? You know, that's where I am coming from, you know, before you go and chase the tank or the coating. I know the procedure, and most people do have that same procedure, because how else are you going to inspect all the buried stuff. And you inspect it when it is leaking, and you go after it, and you do an inspection of the coating, and you repair the coating. Otherwise, no one is going to dig up everything on site and look at what was buried 20 years ago. I mean, that is not practical. DR. SHACK: At the risk of beating this one to death, how detailed was the ultrasonic inspection? I would expect a coating failure to lead to a localized corrosion. I am not too worried about uniform corrosion of this tank. That's not likely to be a problem. DR. BARTON: Right. MR. BAKER: There were 144 locations that were probed around the tank, and none of those showed any reduction in wall thickness. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Why did you perform this inspection? MR. BAKER: It was an opportunity. The tank was opened and we knew that this was a question that was of interest, and so we took that as an opportunity to go take a look and see, just to convince ourselves. In general, these one time inspections are where we don't expect an aging effect to exist to begin with, but we want to confirm the absence of that aging effect. So in that respect, perhaps they are proactive because it is not inspecting on an expectation of there being a problem, but to confirm that perhaps there is not a problem. And so that was the rationale for what we did here. MR. BURTON: And actually what Mr. Baker said, I think that is an important point. I think from the beginning of license renewal that we tried to lay out the rules of engagement, I guess you would want to call it, as it concerns one-time inspections. And as Mr. Baker said, we generally expected those kinds of inspections one time in situations where based on operating experience we really have not found any evidence of age related degradation. But again just if -- well, just to make sure that we are assuming is correct, or I shouldn't say we, but assuming what they are assuming is correct, they will go and do that. And many times that is associated with things that have to do with chemistry of some sort. CHAIRMAN BONACA: I don't understand. What are the commitments that you have to -- I mean, the current licensing term, and there is no commitment? MR. BURTON: I'm sorry, but say that again? CHAIRMAN BONACA: I am trying to understand for the first 40 years of operation of the plant. MR. BURTON: Oh, for the current term. CHAIRMAN BONACA: There is no commitment to tracking aging degradation of that tank? MR. BURTON: I must admit that I am less familiar with what is currently done. So I don't know if you all can speak to that. MR. NAKOSKI: Butch, this is John Nakoski, and let me just ask -- I guess I am going to ask you a question here out of turn maybe. MR. BURTON: Go ahead. I'm ready. MR. NAKOSKI: Are we taking any credit for corrective action if there were degradation of a buried component? Is that part of an aging management program? MR. BURTON: Sure. MR. NAKOSKI: And where they would increase the scope of the -- MR. BURTON: Yes. MR. NAKOSKI: Well, consider that as part of the corrective action program? MR. BURTON: Yes, absolutely. I am glad that you said that. If I didn't make it clear before, let me do it now. The corrective action program -- and this kind of speaks to your question also, but the corrective action program is an aging management program. And what it is, is that when any kind of problem is identified across any of the systems, their guidance has to feed that into the corrective action program, which basically is at an Appendix B level. And so they implement all of those actions. DR. BARTON: Is the commitment tracking system at the same level? MR. BURTON: In terms of the maintenance of the commitment tracking? MR. BAKER: I'm sorry, I was talking to Chuck. I apologize. Repeat the question. MR. BURTON: What I was talking about was the correction actions program, and I was explaining that it is a separate aging management program, and it applies across all of license renewal, all of the systems. And the way that the process works is that any time any problems are found anywhere, it gets fed into the corrective actions process. And what I was just saying was that that process is really at an Appendix B level. MR. BAKER: That's correct. MR. BURTON: Even for some things that are not Appendix B. MR. BAKER: That's correct. DR. BARTON: The question was is the commitment tracking system at the Appendix B level also, or just the corrective actions system? MR. BAKER: The corrective actions system is an Appendix B program. DR. BARTON: And the commitment tracking is part of that? MR. BAKER: The commitment tracking is more of a licensing process I would characterize. DR. BARTON: So it is really not -- MR. BAKER: I don't believe that it is subject to QA. DR. BARTON: That's my problem. You are using different systems to track things that -- MR. NAKOSKI: This is John Nakoski again to try to maybe help answer Mr. Barton's question. I think the point was made earlier that the commitments are captured in the FSAR. Further, there is a license condition that requires -- if I understand right, Butch, and correct me if I am wrong. But there is a license condition that requires that those commitments be met before entering the extended period of operation. That is really where the FSAR controls the commitments. DR. BARTON: These commitments that are in the FSAR? MR. BURTON: Oh, yes, all the commitments are ultimately going to be in the FSAR, and controlled from that point. MR. NAKOSKI: And like I said further, we will have an inspection procedure, post-renewed license, that will go and look at satisfying these commitments. MR. BURTON: Okay. Now, all of that is true, and I think that satisfies at least part of your question. But it sounds like your concern is that the entity that they used to track the commitments, the actual commitment tracking system, which is not technically part of an aging management program, that it is buried in the corrective actions program. And I guess what I need to do is I need to get some clarification about that and what the level of accountability is for that. CHAIRMAN BONACA: It seems to me that -- well, what we are saying is that the one time inspection would be adequate if we had not concern for a possible inspection phase issue that may have led to having coating chipped? DR. BARTON: Failure of the coating. DR. FORD: Or localized corrosion, which may occur the day after you have done an inspection. MR. BURTON: Right. And of course I want to address your question, because I don't think that we really spoke to that. The issue of degradation from the inside -- and actually you said it already. I mean, part of the ongoing program currently, programs currently, is to sample. So if there is any evidence of degradation, it is caught fairly early. I am not sure what the frequency is, but there is guidance for that. So if there is evidence of degradation, they jump on it right away, and it gets fed into the corrective actions program, and is dealt with. DR. BARTON: Butch, my only point is that if you are going to go in the future, and if you are going to inspect other diesel fuel oil tanks for whatever reason -- you had a reason to inspect the 1-A tank. But if you have any reason to go in and clean and inspect the other ones, do an ultrasonic inspection, or do an inspection and tests like you did on the 1-A tank somewhere down the road. That is what I am looking for to ensure that there is nothing going on in the other three tanks. It is the same as if you have a buried pipe that has a leak. So you are going to excavate and you are going to go and repair it. But you are going to also expose other pieces of this piping. So you would go and look at that while you had the hole open, all right? MR. BURTON: Absolutely. DR. BARTON: And all I am saying is that if the opportunity presents itself in the future to do other fuel oil tank inspections, go do them, and right now you are letting them off the hook on a one-time sample of one tank. That's my problem. MR. BURTON: Okay. And I do understand. I guess what I will ask Southern Nuclear to talk about is currently what their normal process is. If they go in to do any work on a tank for whatever reason -- and I don't want to put words in your mouth, you know, if you speak to that. But I think the normal -- I think even normally now that when you go in to do something -- DR. BARTON: Why don't you ask them what they do. Don't tell them what they do. MR. BURTON: You are absolutely right. DR. BARTON: Yes, I'm good at that. DR. FORD: The internal corrosion, and to ask a question. This standard that you have got not to exceed .1 percent of water, what data was that based on, and how much margin do you have if you have maintained that specification? How much margin do you have? MR. BURTON: I don't know. Jim, can you speak to that? MR. DAVIS: I am Jim Davis. That is really more for damaging equipment than it is for damaging the tank. You don't see any damage to a fuel oil tank because you have got water in it, because the oil keeps you from corroding. You just don't see the damage. DR. FORD: Are the two liquids -- well, does the water just fall to the bottom? MR. DAVIS: Water falls to the bottom, yeah, but you still have a film of oil there, and you just don't see that damage. I have seen air cushion vehicles operating in sea water in Vietnam, and the oil coming out of the gas turbine engines coated the steel bolts connected to aluminum. And there was absolutely no corrosion, and I couldn't believe it, but there was no corrosion. DR. BARTON: Did you ever see a thousand gallon fuel oil tank on a boat that has got water in the fuel oil, and it gets holes in the bottom of the tank and leaks a thousand gallons of diesel fuel in the bilge? I have. MR. DAVIS: Yes, I have seen that. DR. BARTON: Well, what is different here? You are telling me that you have got oil protection coating, and you have got the water, and there is no corrosion. Well, how come it corrodes in the boat, and it doesn't corrode in those tanks? MR. DAVIS: That's sea water, and -- DR. BARTON: I have got sea water in the tank? MR. DAVIS: You can, yeah. I mean, you are right in the ocean. DR. BARTON: Okay. MR. DAVIS: But really what I pushed for and what they actually do in a lot of these instances that I don't want to take credit for, is there are well-established methods for determining corrosion of these tanks, and you normally are more concerned about corrosion from the soil than you are from the interior. DR. FORD: Is it protected as well -- DR. BARTON: No. MR. DAVIS: And if you own a gas station, there are certain things that you have to do that the nuclear industry doesn't do. And I came from the oil and gas pipeline industry, and pipeline coatings. And there are very simple techniques that you can use to determine how good your coatings are. You know, if you coat a pipe for the Department of Transportation to transfer oil or gas, you have to cathodically protect it and coat it. And you have to do a subpipe to soil potential survey every year, and that tells you exactly where you have any problems, but NEI refused to accept that. And so we put in a provision that -- and it's not just if you are having a leak. If you are going in there to make a change, or you are going in to modify a line when you look at the coatings, and we have a sub to that on all of the license renewal applications. But you can do a coating conductance measurement, or something like that. A lot of the utilities actually do that, but they don't want to take credit for it because they didn't purchase their rectifier safety related and that causes some problems. So they are actually doing more than they are taking credit for. DR. FORD: I noticed that they say here that incidents of such leakages is very low. But what would be the consequence? MR. DAVIS: Well, they are following EPA rules. If they have a leak in a fuel oil tank, they have to clean it up, and that is very, very expensive. DR. FORD: Well, I was thinking more in terms of that, but also the safety of the plant. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Well, you have four tanks and probably the leakage would be small at the beginning. DR. FORD: So we are banging something to death. DR. KRESS: Well, this is as to a safety issue. DR. BARTON: Well, I think you were about to ask the licensee what his inspection program would be? MR. BURTON: What is his normal practice, yes. And I don't know if we have the people here to do that, but if you can talk a little bit about what is normally done when you go into the tanks and things like that, and the scope of any follow-up activities that would apply to other tanks. If any of you all could speak to that. MR. BAKER: The ultrasonic examination that we did -- and again this is Ray Baker, but the ultrasonic examination would not be a routine thing. And we took the opportunity to go ahead and do that. And if a tank was being cleaned, certainly you would visually observe the condition. You would note whether there was any localized corrosion on the interior. And, of course, that just deals with the interior of the tank. And as was said, you would not expect to see anything in there, because there is -- except perhaps the oil vapor space would be where you might be likely to see something if there was anything, because the rest of it would be coated with oil, and would be very resistant to attack. The exterior surface would be observed by our excavation procedure. If you excavated for any reason -- you were doing a plant modification and it required exposure of a part of a buried component, even though there was no leak or anything that had led you to that excavation, you would still bring in the coating specialist to check the condition of the coating. That is excavation for any reason. MR. BURTON: And if you did find something, you have processes to deal with that, and to identify the possible scope of the problem. MR. BAKER: That's right. MR. BURTON: And things like that. MR. BAKER: Correct, and the corrective actions program is applied across all of our license renewal programs. So it will assure then that if the individual program does not have built within it the tracking and trending, the corrective actions program assures that it gets tracked and corrected, and remediated. DR. BARTON: If I understand you correctly, if you had to go into another tank for cleaning somewhere down the road, you would do a visual of the interior of the tank. That's what I thought I heard you say. MR. BAKER: That's correct. DR. BARTON: Why did you do an ultrasonic on the 1-A tank? MR. BAKER: Because we knew that this was an issue that was being raised and we just wanted to satisfy ourselves and the staff that what we expected the result to be was in fact what we found. And that if we had found something different, then that piece of operating experience would have been factored into what we proposed as appropriate aging management programs. DR. BARTON: So based on that, you don't plan on doing anything for the next X number of years on any of these tanks? MR. BAKER: Unless operating experience were to show that there was something going on that we did not expect to see. And as was indicated, we -- I think all licensees probably do more than they have committed to doing just to assure themselves that they do maintain that equipment. So if we were to observe anything, the operating experience is a piece of the equation to factor in and do self-correction on these programs as we go through the period of extended operation. We can't just ignore operating experience just because we now have the license for an extension. We continue to see what is happening not only at our plant, but in the industry. DR. KRESS: If you had a leak, would you know about it? Do you have liquid level measurements in those tanks? MR. BAKER: It would have to be a pretty significant leak to observe it right away I think. But ultimately you would observe it, and as was said, that would be a pretty big deal. You would be in trouble with the EPA, and there would be an expensive process. DR. BARTON: It would be cheaper to do an ultrasonic if they ever opened another tank than to clean up if I had a leak. MR. BAKER: Yes. And I am not saying that we would not do that apart from what is committed to, because I know in other areas of the plant we have some aggressive programs to do radiography in areas where we are looking to see if there is wall thinning. So it is not something that we want to ignore. You're right. DR. BARTON: Okay. The reason that I am being a stickler on this is because I was at a plant that ended up with tanks leaking, all right? And then after 30 something years, you know? So here you are doing a one-time inspection for 60 years, and then you are saying everything is hunky-dory, and I am not going to do anything else, and that is what bothers me. All right. End of my spiel. CHAIRMAN BONACA: I have just one more question. How do we treat this for -- if I remember for the other applications, they also had one time inspections. MR. NAKOSKI: That's true. That's true. MR. BURTON: I want to -- and I think it will get to yours, too, because I don't want to let Dr. Barton's question go just yet, because I understand where you are coming from in terms of what it says in the application. It sounds like we do a one time inspection-- DR. BARTON: Of one tank. MR. BURTON: -- of one tank, and the results were satisfactory, and we don't need to go on. DR. BARTON: And I won't do anything else unless I have a leak. MR. BURTON: Right. I think -- and probably we need to clarify this in the SERs, is that -- and when Mr. Baker talked about operating experience, it is more than just even the operating experience at that particular plant. One of the things that -- and it is an ongoing think that is factored in, is that if there is any evidence that this commodity group shows evidence of leakage or any kind of degradation, the license renewal process factors that knowledge in, whether it is plant specific operating experience, or industry- wide operating experience. And that is an ongoing thing that goes on now, and will continue to go on into the renewal term. So your concern that we look at it this one time, and it is never looked at again, is really not what happens. But if we need to clarify that in the SER, that probably would be beneficial to talk more about some of the more routine things that go on. CHAIRMAN BONACA: And also I think you might want to think about it in terms of -- and this is in preparation for the presentation for the full committee, but in terms of the specific definition of the rule, I would suspect that this is a support system and this failure could cause safety systems not to perform. MR. BURTON: The aging criteria. CHAIRMAN BONACA: And you went on to look at it in the context of what would it take to lose function, which means to empty the tank to the point where you are really losing inventory, because from the perspective of the rule, that is really it seems to me the objective you have. DR. KRESS: But the question is, is there a safety concern, and that would be one question. CHAIRMAN BONACA: And they would be going into that. So I think that is clearly an issue that we raise, and want to talk about. DR. KRESS: If there is no safety concern, it just seems like it is up to the applicant to deal with it the way that he wants to. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Correct. MR. DAVIS: This is Jim Davis again. Under the current regulations, they require nothing. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Well, that's why before I was asking what is the regulation asking for under the current -- MR. DAVIS: There is no requirement. CHAIRMAN BONACA: I was asking before what do the current regulations require for the current term, and the answer is -- MR. DAVIS: That there is no requirement. CHAIRMAN BONACA: -- there is no requirement. But I think the presumption is that you would leak oil at a rate that would not -- well, by the time that it manifests itself, you would still have sufficient inventory in the four tanks to run your four diesels for the commitment that you have in the FSAR. MR. BAKER: Dr. Bonaca, if I could clarify. There are two sets of tanks that are of interest when you are dealing with the emergency diesel generators. These are the bulk fuel oil storage tanks. The day tanks, which are associated with the immediate operability of the diesel generators, are above ground and are separate tanks. So these are just the bulk fuel oil storage. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Okay. MR. BURTON: Okay. But we will be prepared to talk about that a little bit more next week. The next open item was 3.1.11-1, having to do with stress corrosion cracking of high-strength bolts. The issue was that we know that bolting that has a yield strength below 150 ksi is not really subject to stress corrosion cracking. DR. KRESS: Why is that? Does that have to do with residual stresses? MR. DAVIS: This is Jim Davis. It is the microstructure of the material. We know that materials that have a yield strength above 150 ksi can be subject to hydrogen embrittlement actually. We call it stress corrosion, but they can crack just in moist air. DR. KRESS: Because they have a very small micro structure? MR. DAVIS: Yes. It is probably -- well, it is a strength issue, and it is related to the microstructure. So the specifications say a minimum of 125 ksi yield, and what happened was that we saw yields in the neighborhood of 175, and made sure that they met the 125. And after a lot of study, we found that anything below 150, really you don't see the cracking problems. MR. BURTON: It's great to have a materials guy around. Thanks. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Well, with this issue -- well, go ahead. DR. FORD: May I ask -- well, in this item you say an approved thread lubricant. MR. BURTON: I'm sorry, what? DR. FORD: It says to be lubricated with an approved thread lubricant. It is not molybdic sulfite by any chance? MR. DAVIS: No. That has been found to cause cracking very definitely. A lot of the cracking problems were related to the thread lubricant, with molybdic sulfite decomposed to hydrogen sulfite. DR. KRESS: So the resolution is or experience has shown that these particular bolts had a cracking problem? MR. BURTON: Right. These bolts are used across a number of different systems, and what we found was that when we asked them to go back and look at some of the procurement data to see what that high limit was, it wasn't in the documentation. So what they did was that they went back and again looked at operating experience and found that stress corrosion cracking for these bolts, that they really had not seen it across the industry. DR. KRESS: And where do they use these bolts? Are they around the head, or -- MR. DAVIS: They are used everywhere. There is about 40,000 of them in the plant. They are used on pumps, valves. DR. KRESS: And in the primary system they are used? MR. DAVIS: They are used in the primary system, and in the primary system the only place that I am aware that they are used are in pumps and valves. Everything else is welded. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Let me tell you what makes me a little bit uncomfortable about this. Just a month ago, we looked at Turkey Point and the same issues. And they say, oh, yeah, in fact we are concerned enough that in our procedures we have a limit of 150 ksi in our positions, and so when you tork these bolts, you don't go above that. Now here we are a month later, and we see a different applicant that says, oh, there is no issue. Well, I am left with the feeling that we don't know where this is coming from. MR. DAVIS: They are two different issues actually. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Were they? MR. DAVIS: Yes. The high strength steel issue is the yield strength can't be above 150 ksi, and for A286 bolts, which are a corrosion resistant fastener, if you tork those above 100 ksi, then you are going to have stress corrosion problems. Those are two different issues. CHAIRMAN BONACA: So two different types of bolts. MR. DAVIS: Right. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Could you explain to me exactly the difference again? MR. DAVIS: Well, they had both issues at Turkey Point, and we raised -- or I raised both issues, and that is the high strength steel with the yield strength above 150, and what they did was they did a license event report review, and found that they had no operating history of any problems with those bolts. With PWRs, there is another issue, and that is that when you do system pressure tests, you have to remove the insulation, and inspect the bolts, and there is a code case N616 that says -- ASME Code case that says if you have corrosion resistant fasteners, you don't have to remover the insulation. And we impose some requirements on heat treatment and applied stress. For 17 -- and stainless steel, you have to temper the temperature, or the age of the temperature above 1100F, and then you won't get into stress corrosion problems. With A286, if you apply a preload above a hundred ksi, you are going to start seeing stress corrosion cracking. CHAIRMAN BONACA: So you think it is still appropriate after the discussion, that it is appropriate to have Turkey Point have their procedures stay below 150 ksi? MR. DAVIS: Yes, that's right, and they went back and looked at the certified material test reports to show that either they didn't have any above 150, or that they had no experience with any cracking. CHAIRMAN BONACA: And I went back to the Turkey Point, and in the discussion I just could not pick out the difference, and maybe I should have. Thank you. DR. FORD: But the point here is that the minimum yield -- this is for the specifications, procurement specifications, with a minimum yield stress of 105, and there is no upper limit stated. So they were lucky. They weren't above 150. MR. DAVIS: Well, actually, there have been some that are above 150. They have been as high as 175. When people start seeing cracking problems, the industry kind of modified that specification and they are asking -- well, most of the industry, and I won't say for everybody. But they are saying that between 105 and 150 yield. DR. FORD: But for these applications, would it not be wise to impose it on the specification? MR. DAVIS: I think that they already know that. DR. FORD: Well, there is a difference in knowing it and in fact demanding it I would expect. MR. DAVIS: We could do that, but that's not really the issue, because there is 40,000 fasteners already installed in that plant, and if we did a back-fit analysis and remove the antibolts with a yield strength above 150, we couldn't satisfy the back-fit requirements under 50.109. DR. FORD: But if you go into license renewal in the future, this will occur, and it should be documented, and in the future you will not or should not. MR. BURTON: Well, I think that the industry is aware of the fact that if they maintain high strength steel fasteners with a yield strength above 150 that they can get into trouble. But that is not the real problem, because they don't change these fasteners all that often. They have got 40,000 fasteners in there, and they are not going to go back and change them. And unless we do a back-fit analysis and show that there is a problem, then we can't justify that. I am aware of two cases where there have been a problem in the nuclear industry, and that is at Dresden. And they had closure studs that were overly hard, and they had two of them that cracked. But there has been no other occurrences, but I still ask the question just to make sure MR. BURTON: Okay. Thank you, Jim. The next open item was 3.1.13-1. This open item actually had three parts to it. The first part -- and we have actually started to talk about this -- had to do with buried components. The license renewal application credited this for managing aging effects of buried components, but when you went to the actual write-up in the amp, it didn't really speak to the buried components. And so as a result the applicant clarified that the protective coatings program, that amp, is really what does the managing. But what happens is that again, going down to these site procedures, the site procedures invokes an inspection that is part of this program. And part of that inspection is to use protective coatings personnel to look at the buried components, and they use the protective coatings program to do that. So there is a linkage between the two applications, but the staff was a little unclear as to what the linkage was. So they clarified it. CHAIRMAN BONACA: And that was brought up by the clarification in fact now. So is the commitment only in site procedures, or is it also a license renewal commitment? MR. BURTON: The commitment -- well, go ahead. MR. BAKER: It is programmatic. It is in the program, yes, sir. CHAIRMAN BONACA: In the program? MR. BURTON: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN BONACA: All right. DR. BARTON: And the words in the SER say that you will place this in the instruction. My question is have you already done it? MR. BURTON: Yes. MR. BAKER: On that particular one, the trigger to get the coatings specialist in when buried components are exposed is already in the site procedures. DR. BARTON: And they will be examined by a protective coating specialist? That is already in the procedures? MR. BAKER: The trigger to do that is already in there, yes, sir. MR. BURTON: And we will make that change to say that it has been done. DR. BARTON: Good, because this looks like you are going to do it when you go to license extension. MR. BURTON: All right. Now -- DR. BARTON: Don't end up. I have another question with this one. There is a third part to this, Part C. Are you going to break this up into three pieces, or are you going to be done with it? MR. BURTON: No, no, go ahead. Ask your question. DR. BARTON: The staff proposed to close the site and based on the applicant stating the plan is to inspect portions of PSW piping that is surrounded by guard piping during an outage during February of 2002. Now, I heard what John said, is that they are going to have tracking, and these guys are going to do this inspection, et cetera. Are you prepared to make sure that any outage scope of this February 2nd thing, that this is already in there? MR. BURTON: Actually, let me put some context in there. What happened was that when we went down for the scoping inspection, there were three issues associated with this, and we have jumped to the third issue. DR. BARTON: This is the third issue. MR. BURTON: So let me speak to that and then I will go back to the second one. This has to do with the plant service water guard pipe. What happened was that during the scoping inspection, one of our regional inspectors, going through some of the diagrams, saw this section of guard pipe, and it just wasn't discussed at all. So the question came up should this component be in scope. So Southern Nuclear went back and looked at it, and looked at the intended function. There is absolutely no documentation anywhere of what this guide pipe is supposed to be for. So they went through there and asked their eight questions for the scoping criteria, and found that it did not have an intended function, and so it was not put in scope. The problem is that this guard pipe is actually welded. It is in the diesel generator building. I guess it is about a hundred-foot section or so, and it is welded at each end to the exterior of the plant service water piping, which is in scope. So what it does is that it creates an internal environment that we are not sure what it is. So again common sense tells you when they welded it that it is probably just dry air in there, and that there probably isn't any aging effect associated with it, but we don't know that for sure. So what they said they would do is that during the next outage, they would actually go in and put in a baroscope or something, and take a look in there, and see exactly what the environment is. Again, we don't anticipate any adverse aging effects. but if they go in and they do find it, again it gets fed into the corrective active program, and is dispositioned accordingly. DR. BARTON: My question is whether it is already in the outage scope, or is nailed in the outage scope for the February 202 outage, and has the NRC confirmed it is in the outage scope? That is my question. MR. BURTON: Right now do you guys have it as part of your plans for the outage? MR. BAKER: We plan to do it. I can't speak to whether it is in an outage scope of work activities, or whether NRC has confirmed that it is there. But the engineer who is going to be doing that work is planning on doing that work. DR. BARTON: The reason that I asked the question is usually this close to an outage, your scope is frozen. MR. BAKER: That's right. DR. BARTON: And if it is not in there now, are you going to be able to get it in there, and has the NRC confirmed that it is in there. That's my concern. You made a commitment to do it, and I want to know if it is in the outage scope, and it is approved in the outage scope, and the NRC is satisfied that it is in there. MR. BAKER: What we should so -- well, we can call back and ask. I am certain that it is, because I was just talking with the individual this week about it again, and he said, yes, that is still on track, and we intend to do that. So I will get confirmation on that before the day is over. DR. BARTON: Thank you. MR. BURTON: And let me just say from our end that given the circumstances, we weren't sure whether we needed to lock this in with a license commitment, or license condition and that sort of thing, because they are saying that they are going to do it in February, which is like the time frame when we are talking about issuing the renewed license, again it was another timing issue where things could be working at cross-purposes. DR. BARTON: I am just reading what they said, and I am asking did they do it, and are they sure it is in here, and are you guys satisfied. MR. BURTON: Right. And I will say that on our end our resident inspector, he has it on his "to do" list togo and check that out when that is done. So we expect that to be done in February, and we have the things in place to make sure that it is done. DR. BARTON: Thank you. MR. BURTON: Okay. Now, let me back up to issue number two. Now, I wasn't sure whether you were talking about a third part in the first issue or just the third issue. But it is no problem. We needed some clarification regarding the treatment of the RHR heat exchangers. The activities in the PSW and RHR service water inspection program apply across a number of components, including heat exchangers. There is another aging management program, and I have an open item associated with that, but it is the RHR heat exchanger augmented inspection and testing program, which also speaks to activities associated with the RHR heat exchanger. So the issue came up, well, which one does what. So part of the resolution was that they clarified this program, and the plant service water and RHR service water really does more than just a visual inspection of surfaces. Whereas, the RHR heat exchanger augmented inspection testing program is really the primary amp to deal with components in the RHR system, looking at internals and things like that. So they just clarified the scope difference between the two. Okay. Let's see. The next open item, the reactor vessel monitoring program. This is another aging management program. This program actually is sort of a compilation of three different things. There are three parts to it. There is a fatigue monitoring aspect, which actually is done through an aging management program called the component SLIC or transient limit program, CCTLP. It is done through that, and there is also aspects to it that are TLAA. Another aspect of the program are code required augmented inspections and tests, and that is done through the ISI program, which is also one of the aging management programs that they credit. The third has to do with surveillance materials testing, and that was the basis of the open item. The issue here is that there is a BWR VIP 78 for an integrated surveillance program, where they are trying to work the surveillances across the entire BWR fleet. The problem is that when they submitted the application the staff was in the process of reviewing this. Now, the current status is that we finished the review, and I am going to turn to Gene just to be clear exactly about what the status is of VIP-78, and its associated implementing document, 86. If you want to speak to that for a second. MR. CARPENTER: This is Gene Carpenter. Basically, the staff has completed the review of the BWRVIP-78 and the VIP-86 document, which is the implementation plan. We are in the process of documenting that in a safety evaluation report, and that should be on the street within the next month or so. MR. BURTON: Thanks. So what we had was that we had the crediting of a document that hadn't gone through our review process yet. So what we had was that we asked them either to commit to that, or if that doesn't go through, to commit to a plan specific material surveillance program. And the open item came out that we need this to be clear that those will meet Part 54, and the 10 attributes for the aging management programs. So we needed to get that commitment. We did get it, and they said we will do one or the other. Either way, it will meet the requirements of Part 54, and the 10 attributes, and we locked them in with a license condition. That is the third license condition. The first two I already mentioned having to do with the FSAR supplement, and this was the third one. DR. FORD: I am a little bit unsure about the 78. It was only applicable to the current licensing period, and they are going to put in a supplement due in 2002 for the extended period? MR. CARPENTER: That is correct. DR. FORD: What are the details of that? Why is it limited to only the current licensing period? MR. CARPENTER: As the VIPs of the document is presently written, it is for the current operating term. The reason that it is not at present for the extended operating period is because the BWRVIP program takes credit for a variety of plants surveillance materials. When the program was initially implemented or put together by the BWRVIP, they still were not sure which licensee, which BWR licensees, were going to be going for a license renewal. They are in the process at this time of finalizing which plants will be in the license renewal period, and they will be able to take advantage of. This is going to be a somewhat fluid matrix, because as things change, they need to have something that is flexible enough, a program that is flexible enough that will allow for Plant X, Y, Z, which would be one that they would take credit for, does not for whatever reason go into the license renewal period. They need to be able to be flexible enough to move to another plant and to make adjustments for it. So this is something that the staff and the BWRVIP are working together on to ensure -- DR. FORD: And this relates to the number of capsule samples at various fluence levels, and instead of going into the expected fluence for a given plant in a license renewal period, or is it something to do with that? I am trying to work out why you need all these other licensees to -- MR. CARPENTER: Well, it is an integrated surveillance program, where you have one licensee pulling its capsules and several other licensees being able to take advantage of that study. DR. FORD: So you are studying all the fluence levels? MR. CARPENTER: Correct. DR. FORD: Okay. That is what I was getting at. MR. CARPENTER: Yes. DR. FORD: Okay. MR. CARPENTER: Robin, did you want to add something? MR. DYLE: Yes, Gene, thank you. This is Robin Dyle of Southern Nuclear. The VIP-78 document is the technical basis document for why an integrated surveillance program is appropriate, and how you would go through and screen for fluence materials and select the best capsules that would be representative for the fleet. And that 86, as Gene correctly characterizes, is the implementation schedule. We believed at the time that we put it together that all those plants would go for license renewal, and for one reason or another we are not ready to make that commitment. And instead of sitting on the implementation schedule, we put one together for the current term, and submitted it, and then we will revise the implementation schedule. The technical basis won't change. We have to be able to predict fluence, and we have to be able to test a range of capsules that will give an overview of what the fleet behavior is for vessel embrittlement. So that is the way the program is put together. Just as a note, both Hatch units capsules were going to be pulled as part of the ISP anyway, and so it doesn't affect Hatch one way or the other. That is where we currently are. MR. BURTON: And that is an important point, and that's why they can make the commitment that if 78, for whatever reason, doesn't work out, they can do it themselves. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Okay. Good. MR. BURTON: The next open item was 3.1.18-1, having to do with fire protection. There are actually two issues associated with this. The first one had to do with the adequacy of system flow tests to be able to manage aging. This was another one of these issues that was being worked at cross-purposes generically, and what was finally determined was that we did not need to have system flow tests per se as part of the aging management program. It is currently done already and will continue to be done in the extended term. But what we do have is that we do have an aging management program called fire protection activities, which is primarily inspections. And so the idea is that those inspections, as part of the aging management program, along with the ongoing flow tests, should together be adequate to manage aging for the fire protection components in the extended term. DR. KRESS: Did you inspect just the heads? MR. BURTON: The extent of the inspection? I don't think it was just the heads. I think they look at the piping and all the way up and down. I think they look at everything. There are some issues with the heads which I am going to get to, but yeah. DR. KRESS: And what did the flow tests consist of? Do they actually turn these on? MR. BURTON: Well, what it is -- well, I do actually have some notes about that. What they have is what they call an inspectors connection, and which is at the furtherest end of the system. And what they do is that they actually just run the flow all the way through. DR. KRESS: Run it into a bucket or something and that tells you how much? DR. BARTON: Yes, I guess it is a bucket or something like that. DR. KRESS: So it is a measure of the flow rate? MR. BURTON: Right, and the existence of the flow, right. MR. BAKER: At the furtherest point of the branch connections, right. MR. BURTON: Right. DR. KRESS: So what that tells you is that when you turn the system on that you are going to get flow? MR. BURTON: You are going to get flow, right. Now, the issue -- DR. KRESS: And what does that tell you about aging; that was my question. MR. BURTON: Well, that was the question. Does that really tell you anything about age related degradation, and the question was that it really didn't. What you really have to rely on is actually doing the inspections to see what is actually going on. But between that and the flow tests, you have kind of got everything covered. But, yes, the actual age related degradation, what we are depending on and what is being credited for license renewal, are the inspections as part of the fire protection activities amp. DR. KRESS: So my question once again is how extensive is the inspection, and what all does it look at, and how often? MR. BURTON: And I can either speak to that, or -- oh, Tanya. I'm sorry. You did come back. MS. EATON: This is Tanya Eaton, NRR, and I was the fire protection engineer that reviewed the application. And Jim just told me, as I was out, and he said that you all were asking questions about the inspectors flow test, and how that is performed. I know that -- well, I don't know if Butch explained this, but usually the most remote connection from the water supply, and so what they do is -- and I know, for example, with ANO, their connection was on the roof of some building somewhere. And it hydraulically is the most remote point from the water supply. So when they flow that, they are able to look at the water to see if there is any type of corrosion products that are coming from it or anything. I don't know that they tested it. That is not an NFPA requirement. Usually, they are just trying to ensure that they are getting flow through the system. DR. KRESS: How often do they do that? MS. EATON: I think it is annual. If you look in NFPA-13 requirements, every year they will do the inspectors flow test. DR. FORD: As I read this, it is saying that you could have a situation of the year 49, for instance, and you suddenly want to turn on the sprinkler systems, and you are hoping that nothing has occurred from a corrosion point of view. And this is not the time to be assuming no corrosion is going to occur in 49 years. CHAIRMAN BONACA: This is the second issue item. MR. BURTON: Yes, we are actually getting into the second issue. CHAIRMAN BONACA: And that is an interesting one by the way, Issue Number 2. I just don't understand -- you know, it seems to me that the earlier that you perform an inspection the better off you are. Now, we understand that the licensee proposed to perform a one time inspection before 40 years. And the staff said no, and you have to go NFPA, and the NFPA requires a one time inspection of 50 years. MS. EATON: It is not one time. DR. BARTON: It is 50 years. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Fifty years, because it says 50 years, and then your intervals. Well, at 60 years, the plant is retired, at least for this license. MS. EATON: I can address that. The time -- well, if you look at the NFPA requirement, it requires at 50 years of service life of the components, and if you look at what I think Hatch was doing in this case, at 40 year operating life, their suppression system -- I think the sprinklers were going to be something like 46 or 47 years old. So at that point when they were testing, right before they go into renewal, the system was already going to be 47 years old. And I think initially that they proposed to do this as a one-time inspection. The NFPA 25 requirement is that you do it at 50 year service life, and then you do it at 10 year intervals thereafter, and that is what we were trying to have them do, which was not just to do the one inspection. CHAIRMAN BONACA: So at the end of 50 years, you are telling me that 50 years will come actually after 3 or 4 years in the new licensing period. MS. EATON: Right. CHAIRMAN BONACA: You see, that is not clear in the SER at all. The SER speaks of 50 years, and 50 years from the moment of the license, and you are telling me that actually you are starting the clock years before. MS. EATON: When it is installed and operable, right. CHAIRMAN BONACA: So for the 50 year -- all right. I think it would be important to have some clarification in the SER just to specify that that 50 years -- well, because when you read that, you are saying, well, you give up at 40 years of inspection, and then you are waiting 10 years longer. And that way you would have two inspections than one at, say, 43 years, and the other one at 53. MR. BURTON: Right. MS. EATON: Right. DR. FORD: When they came up with this specification, this 50 year business or whatever the number, they are very large numbers. MS. EATON: Right. DR. FORD: What data is -- MS. EATON: I think what NFPA looked at was that their program, NFPA-25 has programs for the inspection, testing, and maintenance of fire suppression teams, and that in most cases it was their understanding that if you follow those programs that at your 50, that's when you really need to begin checking for the type of failures that you might see due to corrosion. And with most licensees, we found that they would commit to NFPA-13, which is the sprinkler code that requires them to install suppression systems, and then they will have maintenance procedure inspections that are in accordance with the NFPA requirements that they follow. And that is all the information that I have. DR. FORD: It just seems an incredibly long time -- MR. BURTON: Yes, it is a long time. DR. FORD: -- of being assured that no corrosion has occurred. MS. EATON: Right. The NFPA requirements are also the minimum requirements. It is always up to whoever the authority having jurisdiction is, which in this case will be the NRC to say that we require beyond that for these types of applications. If we see that there is evidence out there that shows that there are problems being experienced in cases of less than 50 year time periods. DR. FORD: Well, shouldn't the NRC be applying -- I mean, this thing was done for warehouse -- MS. EATON: No, NFPA-25 is -- a lot of industries outside of nuclear use that as guidance for whatever their particular industry is. And so in the case for the NRC, if we find that -- well, for nuclear energies, we think that they should look before 50 years, and we would need evidence to support that from our perspective. I know that there have been studies done in the fire protection section to look at corrosion and blockage due to corrosion, and those types of things. And we were unable to find any cases or we looked through licensee event reports, inspection reports. And there were two studies. One was done in the '80s, and another in the '90s, and I don't have the numbers now. But the conclusions reached were that the licensees were aware that this could be a problem. They had programs in place to at it, and to manage it if it were a problem. It is not just a license renewal issue. That is more of a current licensing issue. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Are these wet pipes or dry pipes? MS. EATON: For NFPA-25? CHAIRMAN BONACA: Yes. DR. FORD: Carbon steel pipes. MR. BAKER: Let me clarify. Dr. Bonaca, this is Ray Baker again. The item that we are talking about here is an inspection of a -- it is actually a destructive examination of a closed-head sprinkler. And that is a separate issue from all of the other more general fire protection activities, where you are concerning yourself with corrosion, and blockage, and these other things. The specific issue here relative to this 50 years of service testing is to ensure that that closed head sprinkler will actually actuate, and that is the thing that NFPA-25 is addressing itself to with regard to this 50 year service test. And just to clarify the distinction that we are not talking about corrosion and those kinds of things with regard to this sprinkler. DR. FORD: The stocking -- MR. DAVIS: That is part of the assurance that we give ourselves with the system flow test at the furthest branch connection to ensure that throughout that entire time period we are not accumulating a corrosion problem that might lead to a flow blockage situation. DR. KRESS: It seems like the corrosion products would accumulate in the head. DR. BARTON: That's where they will go. MR. BAKER: Well, on these closed systems, there is not going to be any flow in those branch lines. DR. KRESS: Well, there is static all the time. MR. BAKER: Right. Right. DR. KRESS: Stuff can't get down there. DR. BARTON: It has a lot of moist carbon steel, and it is a dry system or -- MR. BAKER: No, it is a wet system. DR. KRESS: They have little pony puffs that they can't pull. DR. BARTON: So you have got air in there, and water, and you have got some corrosion in the pipe. MS. EATON: The NFPA requirement for 25 does require that you test a sample of each type of sprinkler head that is in the plant. So if they did find problems, then they would have to go back and replace those heads. DR. KRESS: You made a study of NFPA-25 to assure yourself that it would be applicable to nuclear, because the issues are protection of investment versus safety, and I think that NFPA doesn't look to you for safety does it? MS. EATON: They do. I think the concept is that the sprinkler systems are designed similar. In either case, you don't want to have failure, whether you are protecting life or equipment. And especially in the case where you have safety related equipment. You don't want to have failures. DR. KRESS: Yes, but there is a difference whether you are protecting life or equipment. DR. BARTON: That's right. There really is. MS. EATON: Right. But the systems are designed the same, and I think that they apply them in general throughout if you look at the NFPA-25 guidance. DR. KRESS: But my question is, is that applicable to nuclear, where chances of an accident is not just limited to the site, and I would question the applicability of that to nuclear safety. DR. BARTON: That's a good point. Is it Bloomingdale's, or is it Plant Hatch. DR. KRESS: Is it an insurance issue or is it something else. DR. BARTON: That's right. MR. BURTON: Okay. We will go back and research that a little bit and get an answer for you. DR. KRESS: I appreciate it. MR. BURTON: Thank you, Tanya. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Let's finish these items here, and then we will take a break. MR. DAVIS: I would like to make a comment on the 50 year life. In a former life, I used to make fire protection pipe as well. MR. BURTON: He did it all. DR. BARTON: No doubt about it. MR. DAVIS: Actually, what occurs is that most of these are static and they are always filled with water. And when you consume -- it drops to an extremely low value, and there were lots and lots of studies -- and this is in the '70s that I did this one, and I am an old guy. But they really had some good studies and they projected the corrosion rate, and what they really recommend is that you don't really disturb the system too much, because when you put new oxide in there, it starts to corrosion over again. All these piping systems were designed to last 50 years, and still be within a margin of safety just for the thickness of the pipe. So they are just plain carbon, carbon steel pipe. And they last that long, and they did a lot of corrosion studies to show that they would last that long. They have a lot of data. CHAIRMAN BONACA: I would expect also that if you had a lot of corrosion going on and tests that you performed once a year, it would show the clogging of the sprinkler heads at the end of the rods. DR. KRESS: Except that they don't check the sprinkler heads as I understand it. DR. BARTON: They normally just check flow. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Just the flow, and as I was saying, you would have a lot of junk coming out. DR. KRESS: I don't think so, because I think they would tap in before you get to the heads. You wouldn't find out anything about the heads. CHAIRMAN BONACA: No, I am talking about the corrosion of the piping. DR. KRESS: Well, you would find out whether they had crap in the water, yes. MR. DAVIS: And we have had plenty of discussions on this, and what we should do, and reflecting about maybe putting or changing it as well. And should we make them if they are going to go into the pipe, look and see if there is any corrosion, and I really recommended against that, and I think the better approach would be to do some ultrasonic measurements, and not disturb the pipe, because you are really doing more damage by opening it up and looking at it, because you are reintroducing oxygen into it. DR. KRESS: And then you have a problem as to where to do the measuring. MR. DAVIS: Right. And so that's what we are saying, and saying in GALL -- well, I am not sure that we have made the change, and that would be to do ultrasonic measurements for wall thickness and see if you are losing wall. DR. FORD: Well, that all makes technical sense, but where does it appear in the formal paperwork? MR. DAVIS: I am not sure that we addressed it with Hatch, because it was only a couple of weeks ago that we had a really big meeting, and discussed this for GALL. Maybe we need to take another look at that. MR. BURTON: Well, it is another example of where some of the ongoing work timing wise gets cross-purposes. So as we resolve this issue, one of the things that we have to do is to go back and see, number one, how does it affect those folks who are going through license renewal right now, and how does it affect the people who are getting ready to come in and maybe far enough along in their application that they can't really get to it. And in which case obviously we would go through an RAI process to get our arms around it. And then how does it affect folks who perhaps already got their license, and then you get into the whole back- fit issue and stuff. But those are all things that as we get these emerging issues coming out, how do we address it, not only -- well, you know, once we have resolved it, how do we address it for applicants and licensees at different phrases. So I don't have an answer for you, but it is something that the staff is aware of, and that we try to do for each one of them. Next, open item 3.1.28-1, RHR heat exchanger inspection and testing. An issue came up with how do he provisions in the aging management program manage aging, or manage damage that may result from vibration, vibration-induced cracking. And we asked basically for a lot more information about their methods, and their frequencies, and all the things that you see there, in addition to there was a tube leak in '96, and we wanted to get a little bit more information about how that was looked at, and how it was ultimately dispositioned. There were some issues with dents and things like that, and the augmented inspection and testing program, which I spoke about before, that is really the main aging management program that deals not just with the RHR heat exchangers, but all the components in RHR. But this one also includes activities that ultimately between the inspections and all that stuff will tell you whether or not there is some tube damage, and whether it is due to vibration or anything else. So they provided that additional information to try and clarify that the actions are in fact adequate to detect that sort of thing. And then like I said, they also gave us some additional information on the operating experience they had associated with the tube leak. DR. BARTON: Before you get off of that, look at the words in the SER. You asked four specific questions, and the licensee responded, but they didn't fully answer your question, and yet you signed this thing off. The first thing you asked for was to provide information on inspection methods, frequencies, acceptance criteria, about bases, et cetera, et cetera, and they tell you I am going to do any current testing every 10 years. MR. BURTON: Right. DR. BARTON: Well, they didn't say anything about any acceptance criteria, associated bases. MR. BURTON: Okay. DR. BARTON: And then in Item C, you ask for inspection criteria, et cetera, et cetera, and they said, hey, we are going to do general visual inspections of the RHR heat exchanger every three operating cycles. And if you are satisfied with that, that's fine, but I don't think they answered fully what you asked for -- A, B, C, and D. They gave you partial answers. So maybe you are happy, and maybe there is something that is not in the SER. I don't know. MR. BURTON: You just hit the nail on the head. Actually, some of the supporting information for the bases and stuff was actually in response to an RAI, and it didn't get transferred into the final SER. And now that you have said that, it probably ought to be in there for clarification. But let me give you the answers. DR. BARTON: Okay. MR. BURTON: For the leak testing and the RHR heat exchange of the tubes and tube sheets, what they said, and I think this is in the SER, that they do 10 percent of the operational tubes. DR. BARTON: Every 10 years, right. MR. BURTON: Every 10 years. The basis were test results that they have done on three heat exchangers, where they found no damage. And they also have a 5 percent margin, in terms of excess tube capacity, to take into account when they -- if they have to do any tube plugging. And so that is what they used to provide assurance that they could catch anything between the intervals. DR. BARTON: All right. MR. BURTON: In terms of the general visual inspection that you talked about -- and again, for 10 years -- the basis was actually a Sandia Lab report that recommended -- DR. BARTON: When you say every three operating cycles, are they on a 24 month cycle? MR. BAKER: We are going to 24 months. DR. BARTON: You are going to 24. MR. BURTON: Yes, every three operating cycles. DR. BARTON: Every three operating cycles. Okay. MR. BURTON: And shell side every 10 years, with bundle supports and some other things. That was based on the Sandia Lab report, and again operating experience. You know, some satisfactory results from some previous inspections. But you are right. None of that got into the SER, and it probably needs to be included. DR. BARTON: Thank you. CHAIRMAN BONACA: And you do have what you asked for? MR. BURTON: Yes. Yes, in response to the RAIs. DR. BARTON: Well, I just didn't see it, Butch, and it should be in here I guess. MR. BURTON: Well, I am going to make a note of that. MR. BAKER: Butch, I have that response here if you need it. MR. BURTON: Oh, okay. So we will make sure that we get all of that to the SER. Let's see. Next. Open Item 3.2.3.1.1-1, having to do with cast austenitic stainless steel components, CASS components. The issue was that we know from the science that CASS or Cast Austenitic Stainless Steel components, can be susceptible to a loss of fracture toughness as a result of thermal and neutron embrittlement. We also know that that will come about if there is evidence of cracking in the components. If there is no cracking, then you won't see the effect of the thermal and neutron embrittlement on loss of fracture toughness. So the staff said, okay, well, let's do a one time inspection to see if there are any cracks in the components. We should ask for that. We did some additional discussions about that, and in the end we determined that probably at this point a one time inspection probably isn't warranted and here is why. First of all, when you look across the industry, in terms of operating experience, there really is no evidence of cracking in these CASS jet pump assemblies and fuel supports. These are the components that were under question. The other portion was that the assembly welds are already being inspected as part of VIP-41, and that these welds actually would show evidence of the aging effect before the CASS components in question. So this is sort of the precursor to it. Once you found it in the welds, then that would direct you through to the corrective actions process to perhaps look at this. But this is where you would find it first. So based on that, we said, well, it is probably not appropriate since we have not seen it, and we have a precursor for it, it is probably not reasonable to ask for it. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Well, you have inspections that would be a precursor to identify that? MR. BURTON: Right. CHAIRMAN BONACA: You do have inspections. DR. FORD: What is your basis for saying that, that the assembly welds should be from a timing component more susceptible in CASS. MR. BURTON: Okay. We are going to talk a little bit more about the science, and I -- DR. FORD: Well, it is not the science for science sake. You are using that as a leader of the fleet. MR. BURTON: Yes. DR. FORD: And I am just questioning what -- MR. BURTON: Well, I can have perhaps Robin speak to it or Barry. MR. DYLE: I can speak to it from the VIP perspective, and I am not sure who the staff evaluator was. This is Robin Dyle. Peter, one of the things that we looked at when we developed VIP-41 was that the material and those welds are more susceptible to IGSCC than the CASS material is. And the inspection program requires all of that to be inspected, and to do examinations of the welds, and the wrought material, and that would be a precursor before we would have to worry about cracking in the CASS material itself, just by the general nature of IGSCC and the material properties. And the only way that you are concerned about fracture toughness is once you have the cracking, and so the inspection program -- and about half the fleet has already done these the best that we can tell. And if you are looking at the entire jet pump assembly in all 20 of them, based on how the wrought material and the welds are behaving, that would be a precursor before you would have to worry about these actual CASS austenitic abusers that are at the bottom. That is the way that the program was put together. The practical side of it is that when you go down with a camera, and you have got it calibrated to do an EVT-1 or a VT-1, knowing what the distance is in the aim, unless you are going to be looking at these things also jus while you are putting the camera in place to look so that there will be some -- I started to say collateral, but that's not the best term. You want to avoid that term these days. There will be some additional inspections that occur that we just actually have not taken credit for, but we know that it will happen. And we are confident that what we would see in the wrought and the welds would be a precursor to anything being a problem with the CASS austenitic material. Also, as we go forward with HWC and open metal, we can also do things to further minimize concerns. DR. FORD: I guess my problem with this particular one was the statement that because we haven't seen cracks, you never expect to see a problem because the parent material being brittle. And you are leaving aside the fact of how -- that if you are going to see a crack, then how did it get there to start with. And there is no reason at all why you could not have some sub-critical crack that you have not yet seen. And to say that in the year 2035 or 2040 that these sort of flux levels, and therefore fluences, that you wouldn't see some sub-critical crack growth in the CASS material. And that's why I was questioning that if you are going to use the assembly welds, that there are so many variables which control the initiation and growth of a crack in a weld -- MR. BURTON: Well, this is hardly -- well, this is 10 to the 17th. DR. FORD: I agree with you, Bill. DR. KRESS: This is mostly thermal don't you think? DR. SHACK: I think the embrittlement is probably neutron. I mean, 10 to the 17th does a wonderful job in embriddling fahrenheit islands, but it is not going to produce IASCC in a non-submittal. DR. FORD: I agree with you. I am just pushing the questioning, and the assumption that if you haven't seen a crack now, at this time in its life, it doesn't mean to say that you are not going to see it in 10 years. I mean, our industry is bedeviled by that argument. MR. CARPENTER: Dr. Ford, this is Gene Carpenter, and -- CHAIRMAN BONACA: Point A I think was pretty irrelevant to the answer to some degree, and I think Point B was the one, because we were looking for an inspection program. Point B is where the whole issue is. I mean, how credible it is that as you inspect the welds, you will also see cracks in the CASS components. I don't know, and that is a good question. DR. SHACK: You will never see the crack in a CASS component until it busts. You are probably better off inspecting the welds. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Okay. So you are saying that the welds are only a precursor. Okay. That's right. You're right. DR. SHACK: But I probably believe your argument about IGSCC susceptibility. In Peach Bottom, where did the fatigue cracks occur? Were they at the welds, or were they in the elbows? So there is another mechanism potentially for cracking here besides IGSCC. MR. DYLE: Let me be careful -- this is Robin Dyle again. Let me be careful on how I answer that since I don't work at Peach Bottom. I think you are talking about the jet pump riser pipe cracking is? DR. SHACK: Yes. I don't know. All I know is that they had a peak problem, and I don't have any idea where it was. MR. DYLE: That was in the jet pump riser pipe and that is wrought material and it is down where the nozzle is inserted into the vessel, and it is that elbow. And it was wrought, and so it was a combination of IGSCC and then fatigue. These CASS materials are further downstream, where the defusers sits on the jet pump, and the jet pump defuser sits on the shroud support, and actually injects the water into the bottom end region. But we have seen cracking in the jet pump assemblies and the wrought material, and at the weld locations. Not to date in the CASS material. So we do have the inspection program that looks at the whole assembly. And I believe that the precursor would be more thorough inspections in that more susceptible material. MR. BURTON: Okay. Thank you, Robin. Now -- oh, I'm sorry. Gene. MR. CARPENTER: I just wanted to reply to Dr. Ford's question. Basically, you are right. There are things that could occur in 10 years that we don't expect today. And to address that, we are trying at this time to put into place a research program to look at the effects of the radiation embriddlement, et cetera, on these CASS components. And I can't tell you that it will be in place in Fiscal 2002, but it will be in place well before any of these plants go into the license renewal term. DR. FORD: Now, as well as the kinetics embriddlement, what about sub-critical crack growth? MR. DYLE: That is part of the program that we are talking about at this time with our research department, the Office of Research Department. MR. BURTON: And the truth is that we didn't want to include it in the SER at this point because it isn't a firm commitment on either side right now. We expect that it is going to be done with budgets and things like that at the point that we were doing the SER. There was no short commitment for that, and so we decided not to put it in, but as Gene said, we expect that to happen. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Well, you do have a discussion in the SER regarding that on page 135, right? MR. BURTON: Yes. Yes. Right. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Well, we are running late, and so for those items, we will just have confirmation. You know, you asked for confirmation from the licensee and he gave it to you, and just try to go fast. MR. BURTON: For the remaining things? CHAIRMAN BONACA: No, no. MR. BURTON: Oh, you are still on this one? I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN BONACA: No, I am talking about on the future items that you are going to present us with, and which you are asking for a question to them, and they say yes, and that's what it is, try to go a little faster. MR. BURTON: A little faster. Okay. There is just a couple of more in this portion, and let me do this a little expeditiously. Open Item 3.6.3.2-1, two items regarding the primary containment. The first was that we were a little bit unclear as to what was being credited to manage aging in the TORUS, and what they did was that they provided us with a drawing that showed very clearly the aging management programs that were being credited, and there are a number of them. Basically, and I have jotted it down because there is no way that I can remember it all, but what they did was they identified the programs to manage aging for the TORUS above the water line, and then there was another set of aging management programs below the water line, and in the splash zone. Above the water line, they took credit for in-service inspections, primary containment leak testing, protective coatings, and the CCTLP, fatigue monitoring basically. Below the water line in the splash zone, they took credit for water chemistry, and associated inspections. So they did clarify that, because at first we weren't sure how it was being done, and in fact it is being done by a combination of aging management programs. So that was the final resolution for Issue Number 1. For Issue Number 2, this is another example when we asked this open item, this was being dealt with as part of GALL, and again timing wise, it was for kind of cross-purposes. But in the end this issue was clarified both in GALL, and Hatch's position is consistent with that, in that they are going to use performance based requirements and criteria to ensure that the penetration leakage and overall containment leakage doesn't exceed the tech specs limits. That is consistent with GALL. DR. BARTON: Well, in the initial item on the TORUS water level, above and below water level inspection, as I read the applicant's response, they say they have taken credit for the protective coating program for TORUS penetrations above the water line? MR. BURTON: Yes. DR. BARTON: I didn't get out of there what program is covering corrosion below the water line. MR. BURTON: Below the water line? Okay. DR. BARTON: I couldn't find that. MR. BURTON: Okay. It should be right there. MR. DYLE: If you recall, one of the clarifications that I provided you is that the protective coatings also should have been applied in the SER wording to the penetrations below the water line. MR. BURTON: Right. That's right. DR. BARTON: Well, it is not in there now though. MR. DYLE: It was not in the SER, but it is -- MR. BURTON: Yes, the protective coatings. Right. That's right, and he had already pointed that out and we will have to take a look at that. DR. BARTON: Okay. That was my problem with it. MR. BURTON: Oh, just with the protective coatings? DR. BARTON: Well, to address what program covers below water line. It is not answered there. It is not in the current SER, unless I missed it. MR. BURTON: On page 3-196. DR. BARTON: Okay. I was looking back here. MR. BURTON: That was kind of a summary of some of the stuff, but it is in the body. DR. BARTON: It is covered in the body? MR. BURTON: Yes. DR. BARTON: Okay. MR. BURTON: Okay. So I did identify the aging management programs, and protective coatings was missed, and we are going to have to include that. DR. BARTON: Okay. MR. BURTON: This is the last one of the open items that did not go to appeal. Open Item 4.1.3-1 had two parts to it. Part (a) did not go to appeal, and Part (b) did. So I will be talking about Part (b) after the break. For Part (a), it had to do with fatigue analyses, and the issue was -- well, actually, there were a couple of questions. For the vessel internals, how was the fatigue analysis found to be acceptable for the 60 years, for the extended term. And Section 4 covers TLAAs, and as you know, disposition of TLAAs, there are three options. Either you can show that the analyses are already good for the extended term, and you can project the analyses or the evaluation to cover the extended term, or you manage. It turns out that they clarified that the fatigue analysis for the internals was projected over the 60 years, and found to remain below one, and therefore met the second requirement. And for the second part of the question, were there any other coolant pressure boundary components that were subject to fatigue analysis, and if so, how was that disposition, and they said that the -- they clarified that they didn't identify any other reactor and pressure boundary components that that would apply to. And that's it. That was the last of the open items that we resolved without going through appeal. Any questions on any of that? CHAIRMAN BONACA: If not, let's take a recess for 15 minutes. Let's meet at a quarter-of-11, and we will review the appeal issues or items. (Whereupon, at 10:30 a.m., the meeting was recessed and resumed at 10:45 a.m.) CHAIRMAN BONACA: Let's start the meeting again. We have now a presentation on the appeal process, and then a discussion of the six items resolved by appeal. MR. BURTON: Okay. I am going to try and go through this fairly quickly. But Southern Nuclear had mentioned that there were a couple of things from last session that they wanted to clarify, and if you wanted to go on and do that real quick, Chuck. MR. PIERCE: Yes, my name is Chuck Pierce. One item had to do with whether the commitment tracking program at Plant Hatch was an Appendix B Program, and I would like to clarify that in fact it is an Appendix B program, rather than what I said earlier. It is audited by our QA organizations, and falls under Appendix B. The other clarification had to do with whether the guard pipe inspection activities that we are planning in the outage schedule. Two items here. The action item tracking, Item 4 of this work, has been generated already. So it is scheduled in that sense. It falls below the level that you would see in the outage schedule or the work schedule, per se. But it is in fact scheduled by action item tracking, and then the maintenance work order will be generated as we get into the time to do that work. MR. BURTON: Okay. Of course, Dr. Barton isn't here to hear that, but -- MR. PIERCE: I did mention to Dr. Barton as he went by about the Appendix B item. MR. BURTON: Okay. Moving right along here, I am going to go over the six open items that did go through appeal. There were two appeal meetings, one on March 29th at the branch level; and a second appeal meeting on June 6th at the division level. And what I want to do is just go through this chart very quickly to explain how the process works. This is a relatively old chart, and I think some of this may have changed, but I think that the relevant part is still relevant. Any time we have a disagreement -- what did I say? CHAIRMAN BONACA: Just keep going. MR. BURTON: All right. When we have a disagreement, we take it and the first level of appeal is at the branch level, and we had several of the items that did that. If we resolve them at the branch level, great, and we continue on with our business and close it out. If we continue to have a disagreement, we then go to the division level, and that is the next level of appeal. Again, if it is resolved, which it was in this case, and so we followed this branch, and resolved the comments. And the resolution was established and implemented in the SER. So that is the branch that we actually took. If there continued to be a disagreement at the division level, we would go on and move to the office level and so on. But for our work with Hatch, we followed this patch here, and of course we keep the license renewal steering committee informed of our progress in this. So that is how the appeal process works. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Is this process unique to the license renewal, or is it a process that is used in other areas? MR. NAKOSKI: This is John Nakoski with NRR. I think this is a typically and fairly informal process that is used throughout any licensing activity or licensing action. Essentially, if the staff and the licensee can't agree, we apply ever increasing levels of management attention until we come to a final agency position that may be in alignment with what the licensee asks, or it may not. But having the burden of making a regulatory decision, once we have gotten our management to agree we established a regulatory position and move forward. So I would say that this is an informal process that has been used typically throughout all licensing activities. DR. KRESS: Suppose the lower level staff that raised the issue in the first place continues to disagree with the resolution after he gets up to the higher level? MR. NAKOSKI: The recourse is that the NRC -- well, we fully support the right of any individual on the staff to have a differing professional view or differing professional opinion, and we will take appropriate actions consistent with those programs. DR. KRESS: Okay. Thank you. MR. BURTON: The first open item, Seismic 2 over 1. We have spoken a little bit about it in the previous session. The issue is that structures, systems, and components that have been identified as seismic 2 over 1, should those be in scope and be subject to an AMR. The specifics of what brought this to light had to do with some piping segments that were seismically supported, and as a result of being seismically supported, Southern Nuclear felt that the associated pipe segments didn't need to be brought into scope, because with them being seismically supported, they wouldn't fall during a seismic event. And we asked them to consider that, and they considered it to be hypothetical, and the reason that it is hypothetical is that there has been no industry experience of piping, whether new or old piping, that has actually fallen during a seismic event. The staff's position was that when you look at operating experience, we in fact have a lot of operating experience that shows that pipes have failed due to age related degradation mechanisms. And that in that respect, failure of the piping is not hypothetical, and should be considered in the scope and be subject to an AMR. There was a lot of discussion on this issue. And where we are now is ultimately there were some additional components that were brought into scope, and subject to aging management, but as a result of the discussions, we realized that there is -- that this is a generic thing that needs to be -- that resolution needs to be incorporated into some of our guidance documents. And that's where we are now. What we did in the short term is we developed -- we are developing the staff position, but for those plants that were right after Hatch, which are going through now -- Catabawa, Peach Bottom, Maguire, and some of those -- this is also an issue that needs to be captured. So the first thing that we did was we developed a series of both scoping and aging management RAIs to begin to understand what they put in scope, and what they didn't, and why. And then once we understand what is in scope, exactly how is that to be managed. So in the short term, we have developed and distributed RAIs so that we can do that with some of the applicants behind us. We also have to look at it as we document the position and put it in the guidance documents. Now we have to apply it to the folks who already have their license, and does it raise to a level -- you know, go through the whole back fit thing, and see whether it needs to be addressed there. So we are trying to capture the whole thing with the Seismic 2 over 1, and what we are doing right now is we are actually working on the staff position. Next, Open Item 2.3.3.2-2, aging management review for the housings of active components. The issue was raised that for active components the actual housing for those should be subject to an AMR. And it actually came into play for four specific systems; standby gas treatment, control building, outside structures, and reactor building HVAC. Southern Nuclear's position was that what the staff was asking for was basically to do a piece parts review, and if you go to the rule and some of the supporting documentation, what it specifically calls out are valve housings and pump casings. It specifically calls those out as requiring an AMR, and Southern Nuclear's position was what needs to be done is already identified, and that's all we need to do. The staff's position was, no, we see the valve housings and pump casings as being examples of what needs to be done, and it needs to be expanded beyond that to cover other housings for active components where there may be a pressure boundary function, and things like that. So that was the source of the conflict and why it went to appeal. It went through the first level of appeal as I recall, and in the end the resolution was that the housings would be brought into scope and be -- well, it was already in scope, and be subject to an AMR. And again the associated aging management information was brought with it. But we did recognize that the issue of the housings, we need to somehow clarify that in our guidance documents that it is more than just the valve housings and the pump casings. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Because this is not the first time it comes up anyway. MR. BURTON: Right. Exactly. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Now, let me understand one thing. Here you say that it has to be developed into a guidance, and of course it will be some place for guidance, and there are guidance documents. Now, the previous issue of Seismic 2 over 1, you said you are developing a staff position. MR. BURTON: Right. CHAIRMAN BONACA: How would that position be conveyed? Also in guidance documents I would imagine? MR. BURTON: Yes, that's right. They would ultimately be in the guidance documents; in the SRP, and the Reg Guide, and -- CHAIRMAN BONACA: Well, when you talk about backfitting to the previous applicants, but I thought this issue of 2 over 1 already was dealt with? I mean, it came up before. MR. BURTON: Yes, and I probably mischaracterized that. With previous applicants, it may have been dealt with in other ways. For instance, I think with ANO, they had actually -- it actually had its own specific category. It was -- I can't remember what it was called. So it may in fact have been dealt with with previous applicants, but the thing is that part of our process is that we have to just make sure that it is. That is the main thing. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Okay. MR. BURTON: The next issue is 3.2.2.3-1, small bore piping. The staff recognized that small bore piping could be subject to high cycle thermal fatigue due to either thermal stratification or turbulent penetration, or it could be susceptible to intergranular stress corrosion cracking. So we needed to have that captured in an aging management program. What Southern Nuclear did was that they looked at all of their small bore piping, and looked at it from both a susceptibility standpoint and a consequence standpoint. And after going through all the small bore piping, what they identified was about -- I don't know, about a 2 foot section of the -- MR. BAKER: Four foot. MR. BURTON: Four foot -- of the enclosure for the electrochemical potential sensor. The enclosure for that seemed to be something that should be within the scope of this aging management program; the treated water systems, piping and inspection program. And what that does is it is a series of one-time inspections just to confirm again -- and as we spoke before, just to confirm that there is no adverse aging degradation. So the scope of this aging managing program was revised to include that portion of the piping. MR. BAKER: Butch, could I clarify? MR. BURTON: Sure. MR. BAKER: That was always within the scope of the treated water. We just clarified explicitly that it was in scope. MR. BURTON: Right. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Well, what happens if you -- the expectation is that you have no cracking due to -- well, that is a one-time inspection, and you are really doing that for confirming that the effect is not taking place. Should you find that, would these inspections be expanded to other components; that is, more piping, or not? MR. BURTON: Yes, and again, as we had said before, the corrective actions program captures any of those kinds of problems, and once it is fed into the corrective action program --be expanded CHAIRMAN BONACA: So that will be a leading indicator? MR. BURTON: Right. MR. BAKER: One thing. If you did start finding some of this cracking, you could actually look and see what type of a program you need to put in place to manage it. So the one time inspections would probably cease at that point, and you would come up with a program that managed the cracking for the compliments. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Well, you are talking if you need further inspections, or why not. MR. BAKER: Exactly. MR. BURTON: That's correct. The next one was Open Item 3.6.3-1(b), reactor building controlled in-leakage. At this point in time in the review, what Southern Nuclear was crediting was maintenance of individual penetrations to make sure that the degradation was not so bad that leakage would be a problem. The staff's position was that that is fine for each individual penetration, but you haver to look at the cumulative effect, even though leakage for individual penetrations may be acceptable, and when you look at it on a global basis, we still may not be able to maintain the in-leakage limits. So the staff's point of view is, well, we already do the draw-down test for the standby gas treatment system, and why don't we credit that as an overall gross indicator for the entire building that leakage is being maintained. Because we recognize that even though it is okay at the individual component level, globally there might be a problem. Southern Nuclear felt like that was overkill, and that basically if we adequately managed the penetrations that should take care of the wider in-leakage problem. Again, they took it to appeal, and when all was said and done, they did decide that we will credit it. We are doing it now anyway, and we are going to continue to do it in the license term, and we will go on and take credit for it. So that's how that was done. CHAIRMAN BONACA: I just have a question here. Given that you are performing the tests anyway, you must have had a reason for trying to have it included in the commitment for license renewal. MR. BAKER: We believed that the test was really a very gross test and added nothing to any assurance relative to aging management. The threshold for detectability of a leak was probably on the order of 2 square foot on one unit, and about 4 square foot on the other unit. So we felt that that was really not going to add anything of value. I think the resolution of it was that in fact, yes, you are doing that test anyhow, and so there is really no regulatory burden, and we agreed. And so we have agreed, and the resolution of it is that we will do the test. It is a tech spec requirement as it is. CHAIRMAN BONACA: And is that the course? I wasn't aware of that. Okay. MR. BURTON: Actually, I think this is the last one. Again, I mentioned to you that open item 4.1.3-1 had two parts to it. Part (a) wasn't appealed, and I discussed that earlier. Part (b) was appealed. This is the next to last one. Pipe break criteria is a TLAA. The issue was postulated pipe break locations meet the TLAA criteria, and should be evaluated as TLAA. Southern Nuclear's position is that it did not meet the six criteria that were necessary for it to be a TLAA. Whereas, the staff said, look, in our guidance documents it says very clearly that this is to be a TLAA. The cumulative usage factor, which is tied up in the identification of break locations, it is a TLAA, and the associated break locations should be also. So that was the basis of the open item. Again, when all was said and done, the applicant did revise the application to identify or to address the postulated pipe breaks, and the locations are going to be monitored using this component SLIC or transient limit program, the CCTLP. So that was the resolution on that. The final was environmentally assisted fatigue, and I am sure that you all know more about this than -- DR. SHACK: Could we just go back to that for a second? MR. BURTON: Oh, sure. DR. SHACK: On the pipe break, I thought the idea was that you would look at pipe break locations again in light of any aging mechanisms that would be going on. Not just fatigue. MR. BURTON: Yes, that's true. Now, let me say up front that I cannot get into it to any deep extent. Our reviewer is not here, and we will see what we can do to answer your question, but I may need to table it. MR. BAKER: The pipe break locations that we are dealing with here specifically are those outlined and which provide or basically says that for a class one boundary, if you have pipe break, or you have locations that have a CUF greater than .1, it would be a 3-1 evaluations, and predicted values of greater than .1, you would specifically consider that a pipe break location and deal with it appropriately within the 3-1 space. Now, that is the specific issue that is being dealt with here. If we are not dealing with IGSCC, or any other fatigue issues -- and of course there is general fatigue. DR. SHACK: Suppose I had a carpet steel align that I would suspect could be susceptible to FAC. Could I then postulate breaks due to FAC, or is it just fatigue still? MR. BAKER: We would deal with the fact issue separately, or as a separate -- DR. SHACK: But that is in your fact control, and so there is no need to postulate, okay, I blew the fact control. MR. BAKER: Right. DR. SHACK: And I have a burst anyway, and that is not addressed. MR. BAKER: Correct. MR. DYLE: Bill, this is Robin Dyle. Just for one clarification. This goes back a long time that says that when you are designing the pipe restraints how are you going to select the location to look at, and the staff determined in the branch technical position, that anyplace the CUF exceeded .1, and so it was originally a somewhat arbitrary location, and just identify where you would assess the pipe break location. DR. SHACK: It didn't apply when you thought the principal aging mechanism was fatigue. MR. DYLE: Right. DR. SHACK: And you have new aging mechanisms. MR. DYLE: Yes, and so the issue here was whether that should be treated as a TLAA or not, and not whether any of those locations was the only issue to be dealt with. It was just whether it needed to be a TLAA or not. And the argument that we had put forth was that since it was a design parameter, and not really -- this evaluation didn't manage cracking, it was just an old design parameter. That was our argument for why it wasn't a TLAA. But the staff disagreed with that, and as Butch said, the staff member is no here to address that. MR. BURTON: Is that something that you perhaps want to discuss more about next week? DR. SHACK: Yes, that is a topic that interests me, is that why should I only postulate the break space and not the fatigue. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Yes, because that is really what it does, and it would monitor for fatigue. MR. BURTON: The last item was environmentally assisted fatigue, and as I said, you all have dealt with this ad nauseam I know. DR. SHACK: You always love it, ad nauseam. MR. BURTON: We love it. Thank you, sir, may I have another. The issue was that the staff's position was that the applicant should assess the locations identified in this new reg, considering the applicable environmental fatigue correlations in these other two new regs. As you all know, environmentally assisted fatigue has a long and torturous history. A lot of documentation. The bottom line was that Southern Nuclear had data that was coming from Susquehanna, and was basically saying that this is applicable to Hatch. Our staff reviewer had some questions about that, the applicability, and felt that it would be more prudent to actually have things in place to actually monitor and collect data at Hatch as regards the environmentally assisted fatigue as recommended in these documents, in terms of locations and fatigue factors. In the end, after our discussion, the applicant did commit to evaluating the six locations, and it was actually incorporated into again the component SLC or transient limit program, aging management program. So they have committed to actually collecting that data at those locations. That was the last open item, and the last couple of things is that I wanted to again identify the three license conditions that we have with the review. DR. SHACK: Before you get into that can I bring up one more issue in the SER. MR. BURTON: Sure. DR. SHACK: It is on page 3-62, discussing FAC. And it says basically that water chemistry control can be achieved by reducing the oxygen content in the water environment. Such a water chemistry control program to mitigate the aging effects attributable to FAC is not implemented in the Plant Hatch units. I would argue that typically one would mitigate FAC by adding oxygen, and not by reducing it, and I just had a question for Hatch. Do they maintain such a remittable oxygen level? MR. BAKER: We have to have oxygen comply with the code. DR. SHACK: Is that in the BWR environmental -- well, the water chem specs. What do you maintain, 20 PPD or 15 PPD? And that is part of the EPRI water chem specs? MR. DYLE: The normal situation -- DR. SHACK: But you ought to correct that statement in the SER. MR. BURTON: Okay. Clarify that a little bit more. All right. Let me write this down just in case. (Brief Pause.) MR. BURTON: Okay. All right. Just a summary of the three license conditions. We already talked about them. One is the standard license condition that says that the FSAR supplement should be incorporated into the FSAR at the next update of the FSAR. And that is required by 50.71(e); and the other one, the second standard license condition is that all the future actions that were identified in the FSAR supplement should be completed before the beginning of the extended term. And finally the third one was what we talked about before, that they should inform the NRC regarding whether they are going to use the integrated surveillance program associated with BWRVIP-78, or if they are going to use a plant specific program, and identify those actions. So we tied those three things to a license condition. And then finally the bottom line conclusion after the staff's review is that the staff believes that the applicant has met all the requirements of license renewal as required by 54.29. And specifically actions have been identified, and have been or will be taken, either present actions or future actions, such that there is reasonable assurance that the activities will continue to be conducted in accordance with the current licensing basis. And again the guidance documents say, bottom line, what we are trying to do is to maintain the licensing basis in the same manner and to the same extent in the future, in the renewal term, as it is being maintained now. And we have reasonable assurance that they are taking the actions to do that. Also, the applicable requirements of 10 CFR Part 51, which is the environmental piece of the review, have been satisfied. And finally matters raised under 10 CFR 2.758, which is hearings and all of that, have been addressed. There were no hearings, no petitions to intervene, or any of that stuff. So we feel that as a result of the review that we have covered the safety review, and we have covered the environmental review, and there were no intervenors or other issues raised. But that they have all been satisfied, and on that basis, we feel like that they can get their license. As I said, we have also gotten the confirmation from the regions, in terms of some of the follow up inspections. We got some clarification for Dr. Barton about the level of quality for the commitments, for the commitment matrix. So hopefully we are satisfied there. So we recommend that they should get their license. CHAIRMAN BONACA: And since we are talking about an appeal process, I think I read somewhere or I read some comments maybe from NEI that the appeal process is not working as it should, or something like that. Is everybody happy about the appeal process? MR. NAKOSKI: This is John Nakoski, and if I could just say something about that. NEI has proposed or submitted a proposed appeal process just recently that we have not completed our review on. We will work towards an appeal process that improves the fairness or perceived fairness on the part of NEI, and other stakeholders, and the efficiency of the process. And at this point, I don't think that there is a whole lot more that we can say about that. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Well, I think we were asking some questions on -- MR. BAKER: Dr. Bonaca, one other quick item. I just wanted to mention that the NRC has been or has encouraged through the working group or through the steering committee a lessons learned process. And as a result of that encouragement of lessons learned process, the industry as a whole has -- well, when we have identified things that we think could be improved, has made recommendations to the NRC, and the NRC has been very open about considering those recommendations, and this is just another one of those type items. MR. BURTON: And let me add that just as John had mentioned before, I think people have the impression that Hatch is the first one to go through the appeal process, and my understanding is that that is not true. Some of the other applicants have, and it wasn't as formalized as what I just showed you. So Hatch is the one who has really gone through the more formalized system, and it was our first testing of it. And just like anything else, we found areas where it could be improved, and Southern Nuclear has transmitted some of their suggestions about that, but that, just like everything else in this whole license renewal effort, we have a whole lessons learned process, and how do we take those lessons learned and incorporate them, and try to do things better. And again because this was the first -- it wasn't the first appeal process, but it was the first one that really went through the technical aspects as I tried to show you. CHAIRMAN BONACA: My question was more directed at understanding the difference between an appeal, a formal appeal process, and the normal process that takes place in an engineering environment where you have levels of management that should be involved in decisions, but certainly should not bypass the technical people and the technical input. And so I am sure that the appeal process is not a process designed to bypass technical insights. MR. NAKOSKI: This is John Nakoski again. I agree with you that it is not the purpose of the appeal process to bypass the technical decisions by escalating it to higher levels of management. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Which I would expect would happen anyway. So that's why I was intrigued a little bit by the process itself. MR. BURTON: One of the things that we have tried to do with license renewal is to try and make it as visible and transparent as possible, because as you know, we have several pillars that we try to meet. One has to do with public confidence in our processes and stuff like that. So we feel like the more that we can clearly show how we do our business, then the better that is going to be able to instill confidence with our stakeholders. So what you are saying is true. I mean, even before you get on the diagram, there is a whole lot of interaction that has gone -- that is done at the reviewer level, and even at that level it involves a lot of section chief interaction, the first level supervisory action. And if we just reach an impasse where our views are just diametrically opposed, and we just don't seem to be making any progress, then we have to get the first level of management -- and not just at the NRC, but also the applicant's management involved, too. And at that first branch level, and it is not just the NRC who is making this decision. It is also the applicant. MR. NAKOSKI: Butch, let me interrupt here at this point and say that this is not unique to license renewal. This is essentially the same process that we would use anytime there is a disagreement between the staff and an applicant on a licensing action. In license renewal, like Butch was saying, we want to make this -- we want to put this in front of the public, as this is the process that we use in this space so that you are aware of the activities and actions going on that may appear to be behind the scenes. But we are being open and up front about it, and these discussions go on. We are telling you that they go on, and this is the steps that you need to go through, the licensee or the applicant would go through, if they disagree with us. The bottom line is that we have the burden to make the regulatory decision, and we are going to provide the public with the information that we based our decisions on. MR. BURTON: And also I should clarify that what it says on that diagram, it says stakeholders. There are more stakeholders than just as and the applicant, and the process allows for any stakeholder who has an issue or a question that they feel needs to be brought up. We have a process to do that. And again all to instill public confidence. MR. NAKOSKI: And I guess I would add fairness. MR. BURTON: Right. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Some of these resolutions -- for example, seismic 2 over 1, the discussion in the SER as I said during this meeting is quite -- is defined. It provides a lot of information about the reasons why. So that's good. In some of the cases, you know, it is more that the applicant decided to just go along with it, for example, and do the test, and it doesn't mean that they are going to be happy about what the resolution is. And they simply said fine. Is there any additional work being done on these issues on a generic basis or not, or is it a closed item? I guess where I am going is that when I look at seismic 2 over 1, you have a very convincing explanation of why aging will bring potentially some fractures in locations that are not really covered by a normal break analysis and so on and so forth, and that makes sense. So you have a solid technical basis to argue from, and I think the issue can be put to rest. MR. NAKOSKI: Mario, I think I would answer that in a generic sense. We would look at the resolution of these open items for generic implications moving forward, and take the lessons learned from that review and apply them to future applicants. If in the case of the standby gas treatment system draw down test, we made a determination that it was generically applicable, we would look at incorporating that into generic guidance. And I am not presupposing the position, but I am just stating a premise. If we determined that it was generically applicable, we would incorporate that into generic guidance that we have developed. MR. BURTON: And also to understand that there is -- that operating experience plays a big part in this whole thing. In the case of the end-leakage, and what we were saying is that you are maintaining the individual penetrations, but we are not sure whether that is enough on a global perspective. Operating experience as we go along, as they implement management of the penetrations, and do the confirmatory draw down test, we may in fact see -- well, that is kind of a bad example, because you have got to do it anyway. But operating experience in general, and let me try to be more general about it, if we find that something really isn't having a real benefit and it is an unnecessary regulatory burden and all that stuff, now this goes beyond license renewal. You always have the normal 50.59 process to try and provide justification, but we probably don't need to do this anymore. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Are any of these issues still open with NEI? I know that you are looking at a number of generic issues with NEI. DR. BARTON: Well, one that I am aware of was the housings and ventilation, et cetera, et cetera, where if applicants said, hey, NEI Appendix whatever kind of excludes this, but it really doesn't, that there is an issue there. CHAIRMAN BONACA: That's right. DR. BARTON: There is an issue there with the NEI guidance. That somehow has to get closed in or closed out here as a factor. MR. DYLE: That's exactly correct. I am a member of the NEI working group, and Ray Baker next to me is a member of the NEI task force. What NEI does is that they take each of these issues that we have as open items, and they look at them, and we also make a decision on whether they are generically applicable or not, or whether they need to be pursed with further discussions with the NRC. And some of these issues are likely to be discussed further with the NRC staff on a generic level as we move through time. What happens in the real world here is that when an issue like seismic 2 over 1 comes up, the plants that have just submitted haven't -- you know, they were faced with that issue, and as were us, as those plants were making submittals. So you may very well see open items and issues with those plants that are currently going through, and the plants coming in next year after that, there should be enough time to where these issues sort of get some legs to them, and the staff and the industry can come to some agreement on how this should be pursued in the future. MR. NAKOSKI: Mario, if I could, I would just like to take a minute here and go over what I see are the issues that we need to emphasize when we meet with the full committee. I think I have identified four topics that you all would like to hear discussed. The first one is the inspection of buried components, particularly fuel oil storage tanks. And really I think the focus of that is on what is the safety implication of that, and how that relates to the rule. So I think, Butch, if we could focus on that. DR. KRESS: There was another part of that that you might want to think about, and that is for the codings of various typings and things. I think that the commitment was that whenever they excavate and uncover these in an inspection, that is kind of a lose type of commitment. I don't know that they will ever excavate and uncover those, and -- DR. BARTON: Well, you see, the problem that you have got with that, Tom, is that if you don't commit to do an inspection when you are doing an excavation, or you are chasing a leak, how else do you inspect buried -- because there is so much stuff that is buried in the site that there is no program that really makes much sense to go and randomly dig holes, because these holes -- you have got to shore them, and depending on what your soil condition is -- the Oyster Creek excavation was a million dollar excavation. DR. KRESS: So you are telling met that is really the only practical alternative? DR. BARTON: Yes, on the coated buried stuff, yeah. I mean, it is hard to swallow, but -- DR. KRESS: Is there no other way to do it besides excavating? DR. BARTON: Well, there is -- well, I guess not. I guess you can run things in pipes and stuff, and look, but -- DR. SHACK: Well, you can put UT and look at it from the inside, but since it is a localized corrosion -- MR. NAKOSKI: And you might even miss it. I mean, it is such a localized -- DR. KRESS: Somebody mentioned measuring electrical potential? MR. NAKOSKI: Well, let me keep us focused here if I could. It really is when does it become a safety concern, and you are going to have to have some substantial degradation in a buried component before it is going to impact the ability of most of this stuff to do its safety function. So if we stay focused on that, what they are proposing -- and correct me again if I am wrong, but I think that's why the staff included what they are proposing is sufficient. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Well, that is exactly right. On the tanks probably that is the right answer, and to go back to the scope of license renewal. MR. NAKOSKI: Right. And I would even argue that having a similar experience with Mr. Barton at Oyster Creek on service water piping, it would have had to have been a substantial degradation of that piping before it impacted the ability of that piping to perform its safety function. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Okay. And if I could, the next item that I thought that I heard that we wanted to talk further about is the applicability of NFPA-25 and nuclear power plants raised by Dr. Kress. DR. KRESS: Right. MR. NAKOSKI: And commitment tracking raised by Mr. Barton regarding the level of quality. We got a feedback that that was an Appendix B program. And I am not sure, John, but with that in mind do we -- do you think we need to talk about that further? DR. BARTON: I think what you need to describe to the rest of the committee is how are some of these commitments, or promises, or whatever you want to call them, how is it assured that they are implemented in programs, and how does the NRC make sure that these things get closed. I think that process should be described to the full committee. MR. NAKOSKI: Have you got that? MR. BURTON: Yes, I've got it, and perhaps revise the SER to give a little more information on how that is done as part of the methodology section. DR. BARTON: That's fine. MR. NAKOSKI: And then the last one is related to the pipe break TLAA raised by Mr. Shack, and I think the fundamental question you had was why are we only considering the postulated pipe break only for fatigue, rather than looking at the other mechanisms. DR. SHACK: Yes. Once you decide that a piping system is susceptible to other kinds of damage, why not pick those as candidates for a pipe break. MR. NAKOSKI: Okay. And those were the four issues. I mean, you had talked about some other SER updates, but I don't think that those necessarily need to be discussed. Was there anything else that the subcommittee wants to add? CHAIRMAN BONACA: Let me do the following now. First of all, I am going to go around the table and first of all ask the members if they have any further questions for Mr. Burton? DR. SHACK: Just a quick one. I stepped out and maybe it was addressed, but one of the unique features of Hatch is the core shroud repair, and it is sort of almost not mentioned anywhere. It is going to be covered by the VIP program, and is that VIP-76 that discusses that? MR. BAKER: The shroud repair was actually done under VIP-02. DR. SHACK: It is not referenced at all in the SER. MR. BAKER: Right. The reason for that is that VIP-01 was the original inspection criteria, and the VIP-02 was the repair criteria, and VIP-07 was the reinspection criteria, and VIP-63 was the vertical weld inspection criteria. We rolled all of those into one document now, which is VIP-76. So, 76 is referenced, and there is not a staff SE yet on it, but this is a compilation of the other four VIP documents for which there are Ses. So we have rolled them all into one document, and so now an owner goes to one place to figure what to do with everything on the shroud. The shroud reinspection frequency is consistent with what the original designer called for, which is what was specified in VIP-02. And what the staff reviewed and approved when they did the review of the shroud repair itself. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Okay. Any other questions for Mr. Burton? If not, thank you for a very informative presentation. MR. BURTON: Thank you. CHAIRMAN BONACA: And then what I would like to do is two things. One is to go around the table and get views from the members, and your observations. And also suggestions -- you know, we have to draft a letter report on what are the important points. You may give me that information later by E-mail if you want. MR. BURTON: Excuse me, but am I to assume that I need not go over all of the open items next week? CHAIRMAN BONACA: Well, wait a minute, and then after that I would like to go around the table and suggest what we are going to have in the presentation two weeks from today, whenever it is going to be. So with that, I will start with Mr. Barton, our guest consultant here. What do you think? DR. BARTON: As far as the -- let me start with the items for the full ACRS meeting. John picked up several of them that I had on my list. I think one thing, Butch, that as far as -- and you don't have this much time in a full meeting, but you are going to talk about open items and appeals issues. What I would recommend that you do is to have the list of items, but differentiate between those that were closed, and the applicant said, yeah, we agree with the NRC's position. So those are really simple, right? But then there are some where there is some action required or whatever. There are two different categories of how these open items were handled, and I think you can save a lot of time by just whipping through all of those where they say this is the NRC's position and we are going to do it. Also, I think you need to have some discussion on the appeal process, and decisions and resolutions, and actions that are yet required to close appeal issues, and discuss the process you now have, and what John mentioned -- and I wasn't aware of NEI proposing a change. So I think the full committee ought to hear how this appeal process is all about, and what it is all about, and what items are still required for those issues that are -- to close those issues that have been appealed. Another one is -- well, Mario talked about part of this also, I think, the handling of the generic type components, the seismic 2 over 1 and fuel tanks, and how will these things be handled in the future so that they don't keep cropping up when you talk about guidance documents or whatever. And skid-mounted equipment, and housings for HVAC, and those kinds of issues that will keep coming up, and explanations to the committee, and some of those crept up during this discussion with Hatch, and how were they resolved here, and what do you guys plan to do with these things down the road. That's about it. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Any other thoughts in general with the application, and realizing that this is the final presentation to the committee, and after that, hopefully we are going to write a letter after. DR. BARTON: Well, based on what I heard today, there is no burning issues that I have got that should prohibit this thing from proceeding down the path of granting them the extension. I mean, we talked about a lot of issues today, but I think they are all going to get resolved to the satisfaction of the ACRS. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Okay. Tom. DR. KRESS: My issues were pretty well covered by the list he had back here, and with respect to what ought to be presented other than those at the meeting, I don't think you have a lot of time to go over all these open issues. And what I would do is I would list them and hand them out, and say you guys can read these and read what the issue was, and how it was resolved. But I wouldn't spend a lot of time going over them. I think the main committee is going to put some sort of an ACRS position on whether the license renewal review process was sufficient. So if it were me, I would think about talking about here is the review and the things that we did, and here is how many RAIs we had, and here is how many open items we had. It would be very general. It would be almost one slide that tries to convince the full committee that this was a comprehensive review, and that we went over the review, and the screening, and the scoping process, and we questioned why these things weren't in scope and that sort of stuff. Just as a flavor of what you did so that you can be sure that the full committee thinks it was a comprehensive and thorough review, and that would be my only real recommendation. DR. BARTON: That's a good point, because I think that the committee felt that this was a tough application and hard to follow. That's a good point, Tom. MR. BURTON: Can I say one thing? I think that is very good. That would actually bring up something that happened at the previous meetings, and -- CHAIRMAN BONACA: It doesn't matter. That's fine. MR. BURTON: That's okay? CHAIRMAN BONACA: Yes. In fact, I support totally Dr. Kress' comments because if you look at the way that we format the letter -- you know, you can go back to the Arkansas letter in the spring. We are trying to address scoping and screening being adequate, and we are making a judgment on what you did, and I think it is important that you give us that feeling that your judgment, that your evaluation, was thorough and you feel good about that. And second are the aging effects properly defined, and are the programs appropriate. So we are attempting to pass a judgment on those terms. DR. KRESS: And with respect to that, I would -- you know, we really didn't get it here, but I would add some comment about what aging programs were already in place, and what new ones had to be put in place as a result of license renewal, and not going into any detail. CHAIRMAN BONACA: In fact, I think it would be very helpful if the existing programs and the enhanced programs, and I believe there are several of those, or five of those, and the new programs. And the fourth thing would be the modifications due to closed items, because there were, I believe, one new or two new one-time inspections, and one of them is part of another program, and it gives us a sense of what took place, and what specific commitments are for the site. And the other thing that I guess that I am continuing here is that the other thing that I think would be important is that often times -- and I realize that you have a limited amount of time. But a lot of issues are -- well, for example, you have in TLAAs, you have certain analysis that you do. But then you have in other programs certain things that support. For example, in the vessel, you have an inspection of the materials, and so on and so forth, and it would be good that those pieces are well- integrated and the programs are supporting in fact analysis, and just some suggestions in that case. And again keep the general message to the full committee regarding the whole application, because that is really what we are going to write about. And again some element may come from the previous letter or previous report that you made to us. For example, there is clearly an interest in BWRVIPs. I mean, they are supporting other comments. DR. KRESS: With respect to the appeal process, the full committee may not be so much interested in the process itself. I think what they are interested in is that they have a general concern that quite often the technical staff gets overridden by upper management without due consideration of all of the technical elements that go into their decision. And I think the full committee would like some reassurance that that is not the case, and that the process doesn't just do that to it. So rather than just looking at the four processes and what they are, get some assurance that there is due consideration given to the staff's technical views. MR. BURTON: Because the elements of the appeal process are expected from a working engineering organization, and so therefore why do you need a formal one? That's why I think that undoubtedly is an transparent one, but I think that is in the interest of the committee. Peter, I will let you raise your issues. I was going to talk about CASS, because the conversation at the end left me uneasy, if nothing else, because I am not an expert in materials. DR. FORD: Well, I have two concerns. One is CASS and the justification for one-time inspections, and you are qualifying or inspecting is not necessarily a time dependent degradation mechanism, and so therefore it is very dependent upon when you do that one-time inspection. And I don't follow the justification, and there is the question of tanks, which is not really a big safety issue as I understand it, and the fire protection system I would imagine would be a significant safety impact. And I follow the corrosion argument that if you leave it there and don't open it up, you are not going to have too much corrosion. I can understand that, but I don't see any control of that. And the 50 year thing, that just makes no sense at all to me. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Let me just say that we have gone through a one-time inspection concept a long time, and the expectation of the ACRS has always been that it is confirmatory of an aging mechanism that is expected to be, or it is not expected to be there. So it is applied to an aging mechanism that it is possible and expected to be there I think is inappropriate. So that is the way we always understood it. So now the only reason why I felt comfortable enough was a listing of some supporting statements, because this morning the pipe was designed to a thickness that would be in fact supportive of 50 years of operation. Now, if in fact there is a design, that should have taken into account the corrosion, because that is the only degradation mechanism that I could think of. But I think it is valuable to raise it as an issue, and so we can discuss it. DR. FORD: And it goes beyond just Hatch. CHAIRMAN BONACA: It is central to -- if you look at most of the new programs, there are one- time inspections, and so they are central to the whole license renewal process. DR. KRESS: I think that this is a generic license renewal question, and shouldn't impact anything having to do with Hatch. And like Butch says, it is an ongoing thing maybe -- well, I think the staff considers it resolved, and that one-time inspections are considered okay. DR. FORD: Well, that is what worries me. Somehow or another it gets into the law that it has passed once, and therefore it is okay. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Well, in my mind, I have always considered it as what you want to do to prevent, recognizing that a lot of things is going to happen and you are going to react to it. So really it is being proactive on the issues that you understand may be there, versus to be ready to be effectively reactive should they happen. Of course, reactiveness also -- that when you accept that, you imply that you can survive the event. I mean, you accept that it could happen because it still would not be a major seismic event, and that sometimes is difficult to distinguish. But what I am saying is that there is an expectation in license renewal that these plants will not have in fact new degradation mechanisms. I mean, that's going to happen, and it is just life, and that we would be proactive enough to at least take care of what we understand today. DR. FORD: The other issue I had was the CASS situation, and how you are going to manage that. I can follow the argument, but I don't necessarily technically agree with it, about using the degradation of the associated weld as a precursor to the cracking and possible failure of the CASS. I don't necessarily agree with that, but that's an academic point of view as you said, and the whole thing will depend to a certain extent on upcoming data. But I am open, as usual, to academic discussion. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Well, we identified in the beginning four items that would be -- that you will discuss in the committee that were brought up at the beginning, and we can include these two also, and that makes six. DR. FORD: I don't now how it can be presented at the ACRS meeting in a meaningful level. I mean, they are open only for technical discussion. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Well, they in the CASS situation, they can simply state the position that they are taking, the one that says that we will perform the inspections of welds. DR. KRESS: And then as usual, we can discuss it ad infinitum. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Well, the one-time inspection also. We have the specific one on the fire, and I think we should raise that issue. DR. SHACK: Is it the notion that you are going to use a lead component as a surrogate for other components that you are objecting to? DR. FORD: Yes. DR. SHACK: Is that because -- DR. FORD: The kinetics of what is happening in that component -- DR. SHACK: So you don't believe that a weld is more susceptible to IGSCC than CASS stainless? DR. FORD: Not necessarily, because we don't have the data to disprove it. DR. SHACK: Well, GE did a lot of data on Tom Devine, and critical -- DR. FORD: But that was 20 years ago. DR. SHACK: I know, but -- DR. FORD: And it certainly wasn't under radiation conditions, even though there was a low flux. MR. BAKER: But radiation doesn't seem to be something that is going to change it. DR. SHACK: Well, we will have a technical disagreement on it. DR. FORD: But my point is that we have been bitten time and time again by this presumption that we know what is happening when we don't know what is happening. It is a concern. MR. BAKER: Peter, if I could, just one thing, and I won't be here, but what the staff could discuss is the safety implications. And again there are other things that go into the plant to ensure that there is not a safety issue related to that. You have daily jet pump surveillance, and other things, and so from a safety perspective that is a whole other issue. DR. FORD: Well, if you had to categorize things, you would do it by that sort of thing, and I would put fire protection over the tank for this one- time inspection. And this one here, I would go along and state maybe it is an academic exercise, and it is not a big issue as far as PRAs. And another thing I have got to mention is -- and again this should not be brought up at the ACRS meeting, but just for the record, I do have a problem with some of the disposition curves that are being used for the BWRs in general. There is a huge scatter of disposition curves, and we are not going to resolve that, and that will not be resolved in the short term. But again I am pinning my hopes on the statement that I keep hearing, that these are all living documents, and they will be revised. But I don't want us to get into the trap of it has been passed once, and therefore it is the bible. It is not the bible. MR. BURTON: I do want to say one thing, because as I am listening to it, it is clear that one of the broad topics that I need to discuss is how the process allows for change, and new data, and emerging issues, and things like that, and it would fall into that category. DR. FORD: And CASS is -- MR. BURTON: Yes, in several of these things. CHAIRMAN BONACA: And there is a distinction between license renewal and current existing problems. MR. DYLE: Just a comment, Butch, that might help you pull that information together. The VIP provides on a semi-annual basis the inspection results across the entire fleet, and to the staff for review to see what is going on. So that is ongoing and documented, and we can respond to that. MR. BURTON: How often was that? MR. DYLE: Semi-annually. And after each outage season, we compile the stuff, and then forward it to Gene. CHAIRMAN BONACA: I think that is one of the strengths by the way, and we noted that in our interim letter that the fact that you have so many power plants into a program, and even if one new event occurs, it will occur once, and then you will know that it is possible in the whole fleet. So therefore you are reactive to that one, but you can be proactive on the other units. So there is a big strength coming from that. DR. BARTON: Well, Mario, has the committee made a statement regarding the BWRVIP program, which I think is a pretty good program. Have you guys already gone on record on that? CHAIRMAN BONACA: Yes. DR. BARTON: Okay. DR. KRESS: I thought it was a good program. DR. FORD: And that is a jolly good idea. It is a question about change. Again, I am thinking about it from a public perception, and reading the proceedings of the ACRS meeting. There are people out there who have got concerns on some of these issues. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Bill. DR. SHACK: I think everybody has sort of raised the issues that I think need to be brought up at the committee. I will say that I liked this safety evaluation report. I thought you made a fairly good case that we should renew their license, and better than their license renewal application did. The staff saves them again, huh? CHAIRMAN BONACA: It was very good. I think we gave you so much that you must be totally confused, and you have to spend now every day until 11 o'clock at night putting things together. MR. BURTON: I'll be busy. I think it would be beneficial because it came up several times today to talk about the corrective actions program as part of the whole -- again, change process, because I know that came up several times. And if I can talk about it up front, I think that would probably be helpful. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Indeed, and you can talk about that and how does the whole thing get together, and I think it is important, but again my suggestion would be that you go on the topics that Dr. Ford highlighted, and then the second part would be more like some concluding statements on those portions of the application that refer or that are essential for license renewal. MR. BURTON: Okay. CHAIRMAN BONACA: Including some -- well, maybe bring up data on the BWRVIPs, because when we look at them, they weren't reviewed most of them. Now we know they were being close to being completed, and if there is additional information that you can provide us with that, that's fine, and tell us. But don't go into detail, but just simply when you think the SER would be completed. MR. BURTON: We have an interface meeting every week, and we have a sheet that gives the status of not just VIP, but all the topical reports, and I will just put that on there. No problem. CHAIRMAN BONACA: With that, are there any other comments or questions from the members of the public or the applicant? If not, the meeting is adjourned. (Whereupon, at 11:52 a.m., the meeting was concluded.)
Page Last Reviewed/Updated Tuesday, August 16, 2016
Page Last Reviewed/Updated Tuesday, August 16, 2016